How Apologists Defend God's Genocides

[unknown soldier]

If there's one issue that keeps Christian apologists busy, it's that thorny issue of the Biblical accounts of God killing huge numbers of people. According to one source, the death toll at God's hands totals 2.8 million people. How do apologists "apologize" for God's deadly ways?

It's important to understand that it's a tenet of apologetics that God is perfectly righteous, and therefore nothing he does can be considered evil. Starting with this conclusion, apologists seek reasons to free God from any charges of immorality. I'd appreciate everybody's input regarding their own reasons why God is good despite his murderous ways, but here are some reasons to start with:

• God's killings are actually good, it's just that we cannot understand why it was good for him to kill.
• God is able to kill anybody he wants to, so it's OK for him to kill. His might is right!
• God is the creator of all life including human life, and therefore as the creator of life he can snuff it out any time and any way he chooses to.
• Since God is perfectly just, his perfect justice cannot tolerate sin, and he must eliminate sin by eliminating sinners.
• God kills those he sees as a threat to his "chosen people."
• We Christians invented and own morality, so if unbelievers say God's killings are evil, then they are stealing our morality.

[Miles]

Other than Christians and Jews defending the character of their god, who says "god has right to kill (preform an act that would otherwise be considered murder)"?

Emphasis MINE

From my conversations with Muslims I'd say they do. I don't know about Hindus, but given the nature of some of their gods I suspect, Hindus too.

Yeah, knowing so little about Muslims and their faith, and not really caring to look into it all that much, I'm real hesitant to say anything about them or Islam, or even get into discussions with them.

Indeed it is one of the fundamentals of most if not all religions thought that the gods give and take life as they so wish.

So it seems. Think it's one of those necessary characteristics a deity must have in order to be a god?


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[unknown soldier]

Firstly, if we accuse God of murder(*), because of what the Bible tells...

It's important to understand that I don't believe any of the mass murders instigated by God in the Bible actually occurred. Those stories are no doubt fictional. For the purposes of this thread I'm discussing the morality of such acts if they did occur.

...then on the same basis we should notice that He has also given life. Because He has given life, He has also right to decide how long life He gives. Even if person would be perfect, God would have right to give only a short life and not eternal life. There really is no intelligent reason to complain if God does not give eternal life for all.

So if people are created, then their creator is justified in killing them. How do you arrive at this conclusion? I hope you aren't saying that parents have the right to kill their kids. It appears that what you say here is an ad hoc rationalization for murder on the part of your God. In other words, you cannot accept a God guilty of murder, so you make up a moral tenet for the purpose of freeing him from blame.

By what the Bible tells, God has decided to give eternal life for righteous and others will die.

We all die whether we are righteous or not.

I think that is good, because if unrighteous people would live forever, they would turn the eternal life into eternal suffering for all, which I think would not be nice.

Those who flew the planes into the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001 also believed that those they see as unrighteous should die.

I dont think death is evil.

Then you go first!

And it is interesting how atheists commonly accept euthanasia and abortion, but when God does similarly, then it mystically turns wrong, all though God has right for that, but humans dont.

So you say God is justified in killing people since atheists do it too.

And also, you speak about 2.8 million people, but hasnt there been much more people that have died in the history of earth?

Yes, but most of those who died were not murdered.

Why make special case of those, when every year people murder ("abort") about 54 million babies.

That's another subject, but I'm in favor of decreasing the number of abortions by the use of contraceptives.

To answer your question, the difference is that God is seen by believers as good while those who participate in abortions are not necessarily seen as examples of virtue. If you want to posit a perfectly moral God, then it's not a good idea to say he kills millions of people; that's not a good example of something we should look to for morality.

I dont think great flood is worse than some other reason to die. (and actually, some say that drowning is the most pleasant way to die).

Uh--no thank you!

People have opportunity to continue to true life with God and so, death of a body is not really the end, in Biblical point of view. And therefore, even if God allows body to die, it is not necessary end and we cant really judge God, unless we know more about how and why things went as they went.

So to you killing people isn't bad because you believe that they will live on. I hope you will never act on this belief.

I do know of a person who did act on this belief of yours. Her name is Andrea Yates. Yates was a Christian and a mother. She feared that her children might be damned to hell, so she drowned all of them thinking that they could not be damned if they died young. She evidently agreed with you that their souls would live on and that their bodies would die anyway.

Beliefs do have consequences!

[unknown soldier]

I dont think death is evil. And it is interesting how atheists commonly accept euthanasia and abortion, but when God does similarly, then it mystically turns wrong, all though God has right for that, but humans dont.

And he does it with almost a vengeance.

I understand that women have about as many miscarriages as they have abortions. If God exists, then he is by far the most active abortionist. Of course, Christians will insist that God is moral when he aborts pregnancies. Abortion advocates can also insist that they are moral when aborting pregnancies.

So what's the difference when morality is judged by whoever says something is right or wrong?

And just for the record, I wonder why God creates fetuses only to abort them. What's the point? It seems more likely to me that there is no God, and miscarriages are just an imperfection in nature.

[unknown soldier]

Other than Christians and Jews defending the character of their god, who says "god has right to kill (preform an act that would otherwise be considered murder)"?

Emphasis MINE

From my conversations with Muslims I'd say they do. I don't know about Hindus, but given the nature of some of their gods I suspect, Hindus too.

Maybe that's the whole idea behind gods. We want somebody to kill those we hate. And if those gods don't show up, then we'll start without them.

[Don Mc]

If there's one issue that keeps Christian apologists busy, it's that thorny issue of the Biblical accounts of God killing huge numbers of people. According to one source, the death toll at God's hands totals 2.8 million people. How do apologists "apologize" for God's deadly ways?

It's important to understand that it's a tenet of apologetics that God is perfectly righteous, and therefore nothing he does can be considered evil. Starting with this conclusion, apologists seek reasons to free God from any charges of immorality. I'd appreciate everybody's input regarding their own reasons why God is good despite his murderous ways, but here are some reasons to start with:

• God's killings are actually good, it's just that we cannot understand why it was good for him to kill.
• God is able to kill anybody he wants to, so it's OK for him to kill. His might is right!
• God is the creator of all life including human life, and therefore as the creator of life he can snuff it out any time and any way he chooses to.
• Since God is perfectly just, his perfect justice cannot tolerate sin, and he must eliminate sin by eliminating sinners.
• God kills those he sees as a threat to his "chosen people."
• We Christians invented and own morality, so if unbelievers say God's killings are evil, then they are stealing our morality.

I would say that all four options are potentially valid. That is, I don't see anything about God killing 2.8 million people that would make the Bible incorrect or make Christian theism false.

Now if the idea here is that the God of Scripture is cruel, capricious, unjust, tyrannical, etc., that would seem to suggest that Christian theism is not "wishful thinking." Who of us would ever wish for such a frightening situation? Given that Christian theism is true, then, it's just the kind of truth many would find difficult to face. So it may be that atheism is the more wishful way of thinking after all.

[Miles]

Other than Christians and Jews defending the character of their god, who says "god has right to kill (preform an act that would otherwise be considered murder)"?

Emphasis MINE

From my conversations with Muslims I'd say they do. I don't know about Hindus, but given the nature of some of their gods I suspect, Hindus too.

Maybe that's the whole idea behind gods. We want somebody to kill those we hate. And if those gods don't show up, then we'll start without them.

Or maybe we concoct god's ire at our enemies to justify killing them ourselves.


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[unknown soldier]

Or maybe we concoct god's ire at our enemies to justify killing them ourselves.

I think there's some truth to what you're saying here. If God wants somebody dead, then who can argue with that?

[unknown soldier]

If there's one issue that keeps Christian apologists busy, it's that thorny issue of the Biblical accounts of God killing huge numbers of people. According to one source, the death toll at God's hands totals 2.8 million people. How do apologists "apologize" for God's deadly ways?

It's important to understand that it's a tenet of apologetics that God is perfectly righteous, and therefore nothing he does can be considered evil. Starting with this conclusion, apologists seek reasons to free God from any charges of immorality. I'd appreciate everybody's input regarding their own reasons why God is good despite his murderous ways, but here are some reasons to start with:

• God's killings are actually good, it's just that we cannot understand why it was good for him to kill.
• God is able to kill anybody he wants to, so it's OK for him to kill. His might is right!
• God is the creator of all life including human life, and therefore as the creator of life he can snuff it out any time and any way he chooses to.
• Since God is perfectly just, his perfect justice cannot tolerate sin, and he must eliminate sin by eliminating sinners.
• God kills those he sees as a threat to his "chosen people."
• We Christians invented and own morality, so if unbelievers say God's killings are evil, then they are stealing our morality.

I would say that all four options are potentially valid.

I posted six reasons why Christians might defend God's homicides. Maybe I should have used a numbered list.

That is, I don't see anything about God killing 2.8 million people that would make the Bible incorrect or make Christian theism false.

I think it's a problem for those Christians who say God is good.

Now if the idea here is that the God of Scripture is cruel, capricious, unjust, tyrannical, etc., that would seem to suggest that Christian theism is not "wishful thinking."

It's not hard to see that many angry people might wish for a violent God of war to waste their enemies.

Who of us would ever wish for such a frightening situation?

The men who "attacked America" evidently wished for a God like that.

Given that Christian theism is true, then, it's just the kind of truth many would find difficult to face.

Just convert to Christianity, and you'll be all right.

So it may be that atheism is the more wishful way of thinking after all.

Sure. Atheists like John Lennon might wish that there was no religion.

[theophile]

If there's one issue that keeps Christian apologists busy, it's that thorny issue of the Biblical accounts of God killing huge numbers of people. According to one source, the death toll at God's hands totals 2.8 million people. How do apologists "apologize" for God's deadly ways?

It's important to understand that it's a tenet of apologetics that God is perfectly righteous, and therefore nothing he does can be considered evil. Starting with this conclusion, apologists seek reasons to free God from any charges of immorality. I'd appreciate everybody's input regarding their own reasons why God is good despite his murderous ways, but here are some reasons to start with:

• God's killings are actually good, it's just that we cannot understand why it was good for him to kill.
• God is able to kill anybody he wants to, so it's OK for him to kill. His might is right!
• God is the creator of all life including human life, and therefore as the creator of life he can snuff it out any time and any way he chooses to.
• Since God is perfectly just, his perfect justice cannot tolerate sin, and he must eliminate sin by eliminating sinners.
• God kills those he sees as a threat to his "chosen people."
• We Christians invented and own morality, so if unbelievers say God's killings are evil, then they are stealing our morality.

Wisdom to live by: there is a time for everything. Including genocide.

So let's please stop being such sensitive souls that we can't recognize some of the hard truths needed to run a planet in such a way that life can flourish. (Which, by the way, is our job, whether we recognize biblical authority or the simple fact that we are the dominant species here.)

For example, I don't get how we can think that it is moral to blot out an oppressive regime like, say, Nazism, yet we can't scale up our thinking and consider the edge cases that the bible pushes us to consider. Like, WHAT IF the Nazi's won WW2? WHAT IF we were looking from outside and had the power to do something? ...

Would we try to talk them out of it while they kept sending Jews to the fire? ... Would we send plagues upon them to try and soften their hearts? ... Would we obliterate the whole lot of them off the face of the earth if they refused to change their ways? ... I WOULD. Why? Because that's what's right for life.

So get over yourselves and own up to what the bible is telling you.

[JehovahsWitness]

Would we try to talk them out of it while they kept sending Jews to the fire? ... Would we send plagues upon them to try and soften their hearts? ... Would we obliterate the whole lot of them off the face of the earth if they refused to change their ways? ... I WOULD. Why? Because that's what's right for life.

So get over yourselves and own up to what the bible is telling you.

I can only presume those that are so shocked by the notion of war and killing are pacifists and believe there is never any justifiable reason for taking a life. I have to wonder how the death toll figures would total if we were looking at the history of the British Empire or America. How happy would their "thanksgiving" be then?


JW