What is special about Jesus?

[Wootah]

If we can agree that bulls and lambs are insufficient propitiations for our sins then what makes Jesus a sufficient propitiation?

Especially if you think Jesus is a created being then what makes one created being sufficient and another insufficient?

If he is a human then how did he pull it off to not sin for 33 years? Was Jesus created perfect?

[1213]

By what the Bible tells, Jesus was born of God. And if one is born of God, he is righteous.

That simply assumes facts not in evidence. Please demonstrate that any attributes of God are real. So far God has failed to do so, but then it's hard to do when he spends all of his time in hiding.

Please prove that God is hiding in somewhere. Atheists would like to know where God is hiding.

God’s attributes? Bible tells God is spirit and love. So, I would say those are His attributes.

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship inspirit and truth.
John 4:24

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8

How to demonstrate those attributes are real? Spirit is like higher state of mind that can have influence on persons actions. And love means I care, and I care because of God. So, God can be seen from actions, similarly as gravity can be seen from its effect. Does this mean I have demonstrated God’s attribute to you? Probably not, but I don’t think it was the point of this debate. My point in earlier post was just to show what the Bible tells. If you don’t want to believe, it is not a problem for me, you are free to believe whatever you want.

[Miles]

So how can there be any sin at all?

Sin comes about when someone violates Gods law or standards. Jesus never did that but if he had, that would have been a sin.

How do you know he didn't?

Did I say I know he didn't?

You did. You said:

"Sin comes about when someone violates Gods law or standards. Jesus never did that."

Your "Jesus never did that" is an assertion of fact. The "that" being "when someone violates Gods law or standards," which you say is a "sin."


In other words, you're saying that Jesus never sinned, A positive statement of knowledge. If you didn't know it to be true how can you phrase it as such?


.

[JehovahsWitness]

In other words, you're saying that Jesus never sinned, A positive statement of knowledge. If you didn't know it to be true how can you phrase it as such?


.

I certainly made a positive statement, you are assuming it was of a positive statement of knowledge but it was in fact a positive statement of faith. To clarify ALL my statements are statements of faith; you may apply that to everything I write.

Hope that clarifies matters. I am not claiming to know I am claiming to believe I know. Not unlike your good self..

...in reality the god of Abraham isn't a very nice guy at all.

JW


NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[Miles]

In other words, you're saying that Jesus never sinned, A positive statement of knowledge. If you didn't know it to be true how can you phrase it as such?


.

I certainly made a positive statement, you are assuming it was of a positive statement of knowledge but it was in fact a positive statement of faith. To clarify ALL my statements are statements of faith; you may apply that to everything I write.

And just how reliable is faith? Is there anything that can't be taken on faith, even things that turn out to be wrong? Of course not. Anything and everything can be taken on faith, which means faith is not a reliable means of judging the truth of X at all. So, your contention, taken on faith, that Jesus never sinned carries no more certainty than the contention, taken on faith, that cats can fly.

Hope that clarifies matters. I am not claiming to know I am claiming to believe I know.

Assuming you forgot to insert a comma after your first "know," then you only believe you know??? Meaning you don't even know what you know?

If not, then your statement reads that you don't claim to know that you're claiming to believe you know, which seems even worse.

And why would you believe such a thing? Because of faith, in which case you may just as well roll the dice to establish your knowledge.


.

[JehovahsWitness]

In other words, you're saying that Jesus never sinned, A positive statement of knowledge. If you didn't know it to be true how can you phrase it as such?


.

I certainly made a positive statement, you are assuming it was of a positive statement of knowledge but it was in fact a positive statement of faith. To clarify ALL my statements are statements of faith; you may apply that to everything I write.

And just how reliable is faith?

I'm not here to to debate my faith, it is what it is. If you or anyone thinks my faith statements are unreliable ignore them and move right along to more reliable matters. I believe Jesus was sinless. I believe that is true but I am not presenting my belief as FACT, I am speaking about faith.

I believe it is a fact and express myself accordingly, take it or leave it



JW


NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

JW

[Miles]

In other words, you're saying that Jesus never sinned, A positive statement of knowledge. If you didn't know it to be true how can you phrase it as such?


.

I certainly made a positive statement, you are assuming it was of a positive statement of knowledge but it was in fact a positive statement of faith. To clarify ALL my statements are statements of faith; you may apply that to everything I write.

And just how reliable is faith?

I'm not here to to debate my faith, it is what it is. If you or anyone thinks my faith statements are unreliable ignore them and move right along to more reliable matters. I believe Jesus was sinless. I believe that is true but I am not presenting my belief as anything but a matter of faith not FACT, .

I believe it is a fact and express myself accordingly, take it or leave it

Now that we know your statements presented as fact, such as "Sin comes about when someone violates Gods law or standards. Jesus never did," are only your beliefs based on faith, we can better dismiss them as having any constructive substance and go on to the next issue.

Thanks for the heads up.


.

[JehovahsWitness]

Thanks for the heads up.

You are most welcome. Enjoy the rest of your day.


Bye,


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

If God can deem whatever he likes then not accepting sacrifices of other types is arbitrary.

Well it would be be if he didnt always chose to act according to the highest principles, which perfectly reflect this cardinal qualities of love, wisdom, justice and power. Since He is omnipotent God CAN technically do anything including be arbitrary, fortunately for all concerned His goodness, reasonableness and sense of justice come into play.

I still can't understand why the sacrifice has to be perfect ... surely good enough is good enough?

Only perfect could be good enough. The ransom sacrifice had to be equal in value to what was lost.

To illustrate: If someone totalled your car, would you accept a bicycle as compensation ? What about a pencil? Could you put the whole family (including Grandma Riley with her dodgy hip) on a bike? What if you were told a bike is "good enough"? Would that be justice ? What if a judge was to arbitrarily say "I hereby declare a pencil of equal value to a winnebago", does Grandma now get to Florida in time for her chess tournament?

If you understand why the above is unjust, you will begin to understand why Gods justice demanded damages be covered equal to the cause.




JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SIN , ...THE RANSOM and ...and ...DIVINE MORALITY

[brunumb]

Only perfect could be good enough. The ransom sacrifice had to be equal in value to what was lost.

To illustrate: If someone totalled your car, would you accept a bicycle as compensation ? What about a pencil? Could you put the whole family (including Grandma Riley with her dodgy hip) on a bike? What if you were told a bike is "good enough"? Would that be justice ? What if a judge was to arbitrarily say "I hereby declare a pencil of equal value to a winnebago", does Grandma now get to Florida in time for her chess tournament?

If you understand why the above is unjust, you will begin to understand why Gods justice demanded damages be covered equal to the cause.

Your example is not valid. The vehicle entails a practical use which is lost and should be replaced. What use does God have for an act of killing something? You kill a goat or you kill a Jesus, what's the difference? Even less meaningful when the dead Jesus becomes undead shortly after. What a charade.

[theophile]

Calling something heinous doesn't make it so. And nobody said anything about reparation, as if Job's or Jesus' sacrifice somehow pays the price for our sins. It is not a matter of making reparations, but of redemption.

OK then, redemption. Either way the biblical scenario is all invented nonsense. make up a disease, tell everyone they've got it and then offer them the cure. You only find out if it worked when you die. Great scam. And, if you take off your rosy Bible glasses, you will see that the story of Job is indeed heinous.

That was a complete abandonment of argument. And I really don't think you understand the book of Job, or what is going on there. I bet if I go into details, you will just latch on to a superficial understanding and claim that God is making a good man suffer. QED!

But what is so bad about suffering? How about I bring in a famous atheist like Nietzche, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger? So suck it up buttercup, and get into the real debate with a real opinion.

Like, what is the Satan doing in this story? Why does God allow this awful test? What is the response to Elihu versus the friends? Was he right or wrong in his speech? Why does God speak twice to Job? What is the meaning of Job's final response in 42:6? How can God declare Job right and heap rewards upon him when it seems that God's speeches put him down? ...

The fact is, I bet you don't even know what these points are referring to. Yet you have the audacity to claim the book is "heinous."

Please, prove me wrong and give me something resembling an argument.