Christianity and Hatred for People

[unknown soldier]

Is there a relationship between Christianity and hatred for people? I've read that early on the critics of Christianity accused it of being hatred for humanity. Most apologists would strongly deny such a charge. They tell us that Christ taught love and that all those who would hate in his name are acting against his teachings. To begin to resolve this disagreement, let's take a look at what two "locals" have to say.

By what the Bible tells, God has decided to give eternal life for righteous and others will die.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but therighteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift ofGod is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

I think that is good, because if unrighteous people would live forever, they would turn the eternal life into eternal suffering for all, which I think would not be nice.

I dont think death is evil.

I am sure that those that look at these societies that God destroyed and know they are doing the things that God destroyed these societies do look at these acts in fear, and dread. If they do not look at these societies that God destroyed with fear and dread then the next best thing is blame and denial...

...God knows the future. God knew the eternal destiny of all of those that He put to death before He sentenced them to eternal separation from His goodness. That is what dying without belief in Jesus or in this case God is eternal separation from the goodness of God.

When I read comments like these I tend to feel threatened and degraded. Am I such a worthless wretch that my life can be snuffed out any time at the Christian God's whim, and Christians would just shrug their shoulders saying I got what I deserved? Can my entire community be destroyed if some "guy in the sky" judges it to be disobedient to him?

In any event, I sure don't feel loved.

[Tcg]

Now, can you tell us where Rev Phelps got all this "God hates fags" stuff? Hint: He didn't make it up.

Nor is he the first one to express it:

LGBTQ people and 'the harm being done by the Christian religion'

Michael Coren talks to the theologian and author Charles Fensham about the hatred toward LGBTQ people in conservative Christianity and how to stop it

Q: Why is it that a subject that features so seldom in the Biblehomosexuality seems so vital to conservative Christians?

A: The British historian Alexandra Walsham describe this kind of Christian attitude of aversion, passive aggression and bullying as charitable hatred. As I follow you on Twitter, Michael, I see how this form of hatred is expressed daily against you as an ally. The reasons for this form of religious hatred are complex. In my book I explore a combination of causes for this. I believe it involves factors including the long history of hatred, live burning, drowning and torture of sexual and gender minorities in the name God. This is combined with our emerging understanding of the social bias through the work of Jonathan Haidt, Mary Douglas, Julia Kristeva and the scapegoat theory of Ren Girard. Shaped by a traditional hostile social environment and internal psychological factors conservative Christianity erroneously sees an affirming welcome of sexual and gender minorities as a moral failure. The psychological factors and the experience of disgust they engender are combined with a reading of the bible that is shaped by these pre-conditions, lead to so much anger and ultimately harm.

Q: How much damage has been done to LGBTQ2 people over the years by this teaching?

A: One of the objectives of this book, and the central section of it, is to tell the story of the rise of Christian hatred of sexual and gender minorities from early Christianity through the medieval period, the Protestant Reformation to today. In the book I share carefully researched stories of profound harm. It is simply shocking to discover the torture, live burnings, the public castrations and hangings, the beating on the wheel, and the killing of young teen boys as objects of the hatred of Christianity. This is true for both Roman Catholic and Protestant Christianity. The damage is profound and continues.

https://www.macleans.ca/culture/books/l ... -religion/

To suggest that Phelps is an outlier is to ignore historical fact.


Tcg

[unknown soldier]

Now, can you tell us where Rev Phelps got all this "God hates fags" stuff? Hint: He didn't make it up.

Nor is he the first one to express it:

LGBTQ people and 'the harm being done by the Christian religion'

Michael Coren talks to the theologian and author Charles Fensham about the hatred toward LGBTQ people in conservative Christianity and how to stop it

Q: Why is it that a subject that features so seldom in the Biblehomosexuality seems so vital to conservative Christians?

A: The British historian Alexandra Walsham describe this kind of Christian attitude of aversion, passive aggression and bullying as charitable hatred. As I follow you on Twitter, Michael, I see how this form of hatred is expressed daily against you as an ally. The reasons for this form of religious hatred are complex. In my book I explore a combination of causes for this. I believe it involves factors including the long history of hatred, live burning, drowning and torture of sexual and gender minorities in the name God. This is combined with our emerging understanding of the social bias through the work of Jonathan Haidt, Mary Douglas, Julia Kristeva and the scapegoat theory of Ren Girard. Shaped by a traditional hostile social environment and internal psychological factors conservative Christianity erroneously sees an affirming welcome of sexual and gender minorities as a moral failure. The psychological factors and the experience of disgust they engender are combined with a reading of the bible that is shaped by these pre-conditions, lead to so much anger and ultimately harm.

Q: How much damage has been done to LGBTQ2 people over the years by this teaching?

A: One of the objectives of this book, and the central section of it, is to tell the story of the rise of Christian hatred of sexual and gender minorities from early Christianity through the medieval period, the Protestant Reformation to today. In the book I share carefully researched stories of profound harm. It is simply shocking to discover the torture, live burnings, the public castrations and hangings, the beating on the wheel, and the killing of young teen boys as objects of the hatred of Christianity. This is true for both Roman Catholic and Protestant Christianity. The damage is profound and continues.

https://www.macleans.ca/culture/books/l ... -religion/

To suggest that Phelps is an outlier is to ignore historical fact.

It is good PR, though!

I'm well aware of the horrors done in "the name of Christ." In addition to homosexuals, the disabled have been persecuted too. Consider Luther and the Spawn of Satan: Changelings and Infanticide:

...some of Father* Luther's beliefs were bizarre.
...he was also a true believer in changelings. Luther was very much a product of his own times with respect to superstitious beliefs and practices. He sincerely believed that Satan was responsible for the malformed children known as changelings, and that such satanic child exchanges occurred frequently. {footnote 9} In Luther's theological view, a changeling was a child of the devil without a human soul, "only a piece of flesh." This view made it easy to justify almost any abuse of an unfortunate child thought to be a changeling, including the ultimate mistreatment: infanticide. Luther himself had no reservations about putting such children to death.

This information really hits home for me because I am disabled, and in at least three occasions I have been abused by Christians who were inspired to do so by their beliefs.

Many Christians like bjs will deny that Christ could possibly inspire this evil. It seems very unlikely to me that they are right.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to unknown soldier in post #1]

When I read comments like these I tend to feel threatened and degraded. Am I such a worthless wretch that my life can be snuffed out any time at the Christian God's whim,

Yes, we all are! God would be unloving if He did not give a man a way to resolve his sin issue. But he did give ma a way to resolve his sin issue both in the Old and New Testament. That is why we call the gospel, for it is the "GOOD NEWS" that we do not have to live with our sin. And it is open to the whole of humanity.

It would be unloving for God not to inform man of the sin problem that he has. Nobody likes to hear the prognosis of death, but those that hear that prognosis and believe that prognosis are delighted to hear that there is a cure to the problem of sin and death. Faith in Jesus Christ.

[1213]

...It sure looks to me that you're equating religious belief with righteousness. Does God not care what a "righteous" person's beliefs are? You're perfectly free to deny the charge any time by posting that to you it makes no difference to a person's righteousness what their religion is. Can anybody, including atheists, be righteous and deserve to be treated well?

Anyway, what prompted me to start this discussion is your apparent contempt for people always going on about how those you judge to be unrighteousness should be killed and how much better the world would be without them. And all of that contempt is grounded in your Christian beliefs.

Yes, I dont like people who murder, steal, lie and torture others. Do you think I should like those people? Do you like people who do evil and make others life misery? Dont you think world would be better without murderers, liars, thieves and torturers?

But, even if I would think those unrighteous people who lie, steal, murder and torture are evil, I think they should be treated well, even if they would not deserve it and evilness of other people is not good reason to become evil also. As Jesus says:

love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

Righteousness is not really about beliefs, but about right understanding, wisdom of the just. When person has that understanding, he wants to do what is right and good, because he understands it is right and good and wants it freely. Person who has not heard of Bible or Jesus can be counted righteous by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

If person shows that right understanding, which comes visible in actions, he can be counted righteous.

But, can person who says "God does not exist", or lies about the Bible, be righteous? What do you think? I wouldnt call a liar righteous. Luckily, I am not the judge. I leave judgment to God and I believe the judgment comes as told in the Bible.

And for unrighteous there is death waiting. I dont think it means they are then treated badly. Obviously, one could say, "why not let them live in their own world and righteous in their own world so that no one needs to suffer or die"? If there would be a place where is only unrighteous evil people, they would make it eternal suffering for themselves. That is why I think it is actually better for them to die than to live. And no, it would not help to allow them to live, but restrict them so that they cant do what they want, because it would be then also suffering for them. But, maybe I am wrong and unrighteous people live eternally in their own realm. It sounds much like Dantes hell.

And about religions, I think they are man made organizations that may be loosely based also to Bible. It is not necessary to be part of a religion to be righteous. But, I believe that person who is righteous, doesnt reject what Jesus said, because the teachings of Jesus are good and truth.

[unknown soldier]

[Replying to unknown soldier in post #1]

When I read comments like these I tend to feel threatened and degraded. Am I such a worthless wretch that my life can be snuffed out any time at the Christian God's whim,

Yes, we all are! God would be unloving if He did not give a man a way to resolve his sin issue. But he did give ma a way to resolve his sin issue both in the Old and New Testament. That is why we call the gospel, for it is the "GOOD NEWS" that we do not have to live with our sin. And it is open to the whole of humanity.

It would be unloving for God not to inform man of the sin problem that he has. Nobody likes to hear the prognosis of death, but those that hear that prognosis and believe that prognosis are delighted to hear that there is a cure to the problem of sin and death. Faith in Jesus Christ.

You've posted here a really good example of what I stated in the OP. You say people are worthless wretches and that it is not wrong to kill them. We need to be "fixed," and your religion has that repair! Applying a "Jesus bandage" to all that degradation won't heal the wounds you inflict, at least not for me.

My spin on this issue is that although we people are very imperfect, we are generally good most of the time. If we were not good, then we could have never built the thriving civilization we have created. Everything you have was granted to you by people. Your home, your healthcare, the clothes on your back and the food on your table all came from the efforts and activities of people. So please recognize all the good people have done for you and show some appreciation to them.

[unknown soldier]

Yes, I dont like people who murder, steal, lie and torture others.

Why not avow that you hate them and want them dead? I have lied and stolen, so I would be among those you don't like and want dead. You yourself have surely lied and stolen, so you would need to join all of the "unrighteous" too.

Do you think I should like those people?

Yes, I'd prefer that you like them, but you have the right to hate anybody you wish. I just want people to know you hate them and that that hate is rooted in your Christian beliefs.

Do you like people who do evil and make others life misery?

No, I wouldn't say I like them, but I don't dislike them either. I certainly don't want them to be dead. I understand that people are just like that--we all do what others think is evil and may make life miserable for them. Other people might see you as evil; do you think you should be killed because they categorize you that way?

Dont you think world would be better without murderers, liars, thieves and torturers?

If the world would be better without liars and thieves, then please step off of it.

Anyway, I just don't categorize people like you do. We should be careful not to mislabel people because we can be mislabeled. Would you like to be labeled as a liar?

But, even if I would think those unrighteous people who lie, steal, murder and torture are evil, I think they should be treated well...

I thought you said they should be killed.

Righteousness is not really about beliefs, but about right understanding, wisdom of the just. When person has that understanding, he wants to do what is right and good, because he understands it is right and good and wants it freely. Person who has not heard of Bible or Jesus can be counted righteous...

Then the Bible and Jesus are not necessary to be good! What's the point, then?

But, can person who says "God does not exist", or lies about the Bible, be righteous? What do you think?

I'd say that such an atheist can be seen as righteous. In fact, it's great to say that God doesn't exist. It is true, after all.

As for a person who lies about the Bible, she or he might still be righteous. Many Christian apologists lie about the Bible to get people to believe it, but I don't know if those apologists are not righteous.

If there would be a place where is only unrighteous evil people, they would make it eternal suffering for themselves. That is why I think it is actually better for them to die than to live.

Who exactly are these evil and unrighteous people that you want dead? Earlier you said they should be treated well.

And no, it would not help to allow them to live, but restrict them so that they cant do what they want, because it would be then also suffering for them.

So you say that we need to kill those evil people for their own good. Is that what you mean by treating them well?

...I believe that person who is righteous, doesnt reject what Jesus said, because the teachings of Jesus are good and truth.

In that case we need Jesus to be righteous which contradicts what you just said!

In summary, you have helped me make my point. There is a relationship between Christianity and hatred. Christianity splits people up into the righteous and the unrighteous. It should then be no surprise that Christians hate the "unrighteous."

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to unknown soldier in post #15]

My spin on this issue is that although we people are very imperfect, we are generally good most of the time.

Who is deciding what good is? Is abortion "good"? Is pulling people out of cars and beating them "good"? Is looting "good"? Is homosexuality good? Are you deciding what is good? Maybe I want to decide what is good. Maybe I want to say eating 10 snicker bars not the small ones but the big ones and 10 big mac sandwiches are good.

How can you possibly say that people are basically "good" without defining what good is? Because what you say is "good" is not necessarily what I think is good.

Maybe we can vote on what is good. And the majority decides what is good. That was tried in Germany and that did not work out so well. That was tried in the mobs in the US that burned down buildings and that did not go so well either.

If we were not good, then we could have never built the thriving civilization we have created.

You mean the one built on Judeo/Christian values that one. Read the writers of the English Magna Carta or the framers of the US Consitution and you will find that Christianity was behind those pivotal documents in which western civilization has been built. And it is this western civilization that has led to this "thriving civilization" that we have now.

Everything you have was granted to you by people. Your home, your healthcare, the clothes on your back and the food on your table all came from the efforts and activities of people. So please recognize all the good people have done for you and show some appreciation to them.

The order in a society that has encouraged people to work and not steal, to help their neighbors instead of killing them was only brought about by the documents like the English Magna Carta or the US Constitution that produced that laws to govern the people by Judeo/Christian values.

All you need to do is look at some of the lawless third world countries and you will see what men left to themselves will produce.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to unknown soldier in post #1]

Is there a relationship between Christianity and hatred for people? I've read that early on the critics of Christianity accused it of being hatred for humanity. Most apologists would strongly deny such a charge. They tell us that Christ taught love and that all those who would hate in his name are acting against his teachings. To begin to resolve this disagreement, let's take a look at what two "locals" have to say.

It is a mistake to equate Christianity (the religion, with all its sects and denominations and doctrines) with Christ. It should be clear that "Christianity" (the religion that claims to be from Christ) contradicts Christ in word and in deed on numerous occasions. "Christianity" (the religion), has most definitely treated mankind (and its own followers) with a decided lack of love. Where was the love for indigenous communities when their children were taken from them and placed in residential schools where they were abused in every sense of the word, even killed? Where was the love for the freedom of people (the very freedom God gives us to choose)... when people have been forced to convert to the religion (or be tortured, punished, persecuted, even killed)? Where is the love for anyone (other than itself/themselves) when religions/religious leaders steal from and lie to their members? Where is the love for children and families who have been abused by leaders in the religion - and - those abusers have been protected by the religion/religious leaders?


Christ taught none of those things.


As to your question to 1213 (though I am dividing it into two, since it covers two points):

Can anybody, including atheists, be righteous... ?

Yes.

1213 posted one set of verses that support this answer. Romans 2:13-15

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in Gods sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when people of the nations, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)


I shared more fully about this on another thread (titled "A good God would not send a decent atheist to hell"), according to what my Lord has taught me. It may not be popular in religion, but it is what my Lord taught me, and it is supported by what is written.

viewtopic.php?p=731804#p731804


*

As to the second part of your question:

Can anybody, including atheists, be righteous and deserve to be treated well?

I am not big on saying who deserves what (that sounds like judging to me), but YES, the outstanding debt that we (mankind) owe one another (to atheists, theists, agnostics, etc,) is LOVE. So we are to treat one another with love - even our enemies, if indeed we wish to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect; if we wish to be children of our Father in heaven.

"You have heard that it was said, Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:43-48


Not to mention "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."... and... "Love your neighbor as yourself."


Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. Romans 13:8



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[unknown soldier]

[Replying to unknown soldier in post #15]

My spin on this issue is that although we people are very imperfect, we are generally good most of the time.

Who is deciding what good is?

I am.

Is abortion "good"?

In most cases I'm not sure, but when a mother's pregnancy endangers her life, abortion is very good.

Is pulling people out of cars and beating them "good"? Is looting "good"?

Generally, no and no, but there may be some exceptions.

Is homosexuality good?

I don't know if I would say that homosexuality is good or bad, but it is morally acceptable. I favor gay men's right to marry.

Are you deciding what is good?

Yes. Who else should decide?

Maybe I want to decide what is good. Maybe I want to say eating 10 snicker bars not the small ones but the big ones and 10 big mac sandwiches are good.

Go right ahead and say whatever is on your mind.

How can you possibly say that people are basically "good" without defining what good is?

I assumed it was understood what good is. Do you want me to post a Google definition?

Because what you say is "good" is not necessarily what I think is good.

We probably differ on some issues.

Maybe we can vote on what is good. And the majority decides what is good.

That's democracy.

That was tried in Germany and that did not work out so well. That was tried in the mobs in the US that burned down buildings and that did not go so well either.

Democracy is not perfect, but it beats theocracy.

If we were not good, then we could have never built the thriving civilization we have created.

You mean the one built on Judeo/Christian values that one. Read the writers of the English Magna Carta or the framers of the US Consitution and you will find that Christianity was behind those pivotal documents in which western civilization has been built. And it is this western civilization that has led to this "thriving civilization" that we have now.

Actually, I was referring to the whole world as a civilization. Much of the world has been affected little by Christianity, yet it has developed.

The order in a society that has encouraged people to work and not steal, to help their neighbors instead of killing them was only brought about by the documents like the English Magna Carta or the US Constitution that produced that laws to govern the people by Judeo/Christian values.

The Magna Carta and the US Constitution are human documents that were created by people. If you like them, then thank the people who created them.

All you need to do is look at some of the lawless third world countries and you will see what men left to themselves will produce.

I just checked which countries have the highest rates of crime, and several in the top ten are predominately Christian including Brazil and Peru. Here in the US, Bible-belt states tend to have the highest crime rates.

So you are right: men left to themselves will produce violent and dangerous religions that lead to untold harm.

[bjs1]

[Replying to unknown soldier in post #10]

I am going to set aside your various strawmen attacks on Christianity. You have already stated that I, a Christian, do not know what Christians believe and that you, a non-Christian, know better. Nothing will ever dissuade an attitude of that nature. So I will try to address your original post.

Anyone who reads 1213's post, as quoted in the first post of this thread, will see that he simply did not say what you claimed he said. You have projected his words on to yourself.

The idea that Christianity on that whole inspires hatred is an anti-Christian's fantasy. It has no basis in reality. Sure, you can find the extremist like the Westboro Baptist Church, but they are so far on the fringe that bringing them up as normative is ridiculous. I wrote that they make up two one-hundred-millionths of a one percent of current Christians. I took an estimate of the number of members of Westboro and compared it to an estimate of the number of Christianity in the world to reach that number. It was a generous estimate, since I rounded up for the members of Westboro and rounded down for the total number of Christians.

Once you get away from fringe movements like that the idea that Christianity leads to hatred is found mainly in works of fiction and in the writings of those with an ax to grind. It is divorced from truth.

Anyone who reads the 18th chapter of Leviticus will find that it addresses sexual ethics for people who claim to follow the Lord. It does not advocate (or mention) hatred, and has no ethic or effect for those who do not claim to follow Yahweh.

That said, I have found that many people believe that fiction is reality. Having seen the fringe groups and the fictional portrays, they have accepted that such things are real and normative. Such people will never change their opinion.