What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to William in post #522]

I appreciate receiving your feedback but curious as to what motivated you to response to a post I made back in 2019.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to William in post #522]

I think you are correct that this particular forum is unsuited to debate. Christianity made itself unavailable to any type of change, a long time ago [relative to human social structure] and there is essentially no debate to be had.

I too have been seeing this site the same way, but thought, maybe it was just me and me innate inability to see otherwise. It's good to see others seeing it the same way and that I'm not (totally) off my rocker I'd go further but I'm afraid it would 'offend' those that be here
But at least I'm learning. Not about Christianity as much but more about those that say they follow it. And they're not always a good representation of their belief system. Like at all.
But learning is learning I suppose.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #522]

I appreciate receiving your feedback but curious as to what motivated you to response to a post I made back in 2019.

I wasn't motivated by anything really - just let the spirit lead me...and apparently it helped member nobspeople not feel so alone in his/her thinking.

eta

And look - after posting the above I am exposed to advertising on this site, verifying what Christians are up to...

[PinSeeker]

Well, I'm kinda bored, so...

One has to appreciate reality in order to cope with it.

LOL! I agree. But nobody's burying his/her head in the sand -- Christian or not -- if that's what you're implying.

I think you are correct that this particular forum is unsuited to debate.

Well, this particular forum ("Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma") is unsuited only for the particular kind of debate atheists and agnostics want to have. Just think about that title, and you might begin to understand why that is the case. For the record, I think you do understand it, but you seem to just resent it, which seems self-injurious to me, but so be it. This particular forum was created so those who actually hold to a particular theology/doctrine/dogma would have a place to discuss and debate whatever it is they hold to on this or that. If one has no theology/doctrine/dogma -- which is the case at least with atheists -- then, it seems they would have no problem with staying out of the discussion/debate herein.

Christianity made itself unavailable to any type of change, a long time ago [relative to human social structure] and there is essentially no debate to be had.

Nonsense. I mean, God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. So He never changes. But no person has a corner on truth, and he/she may be mistaken about that truth at least from time to time. For believers, though, there is no debate over whether Christianity is true or not, so in that sense, I agree with you. But couldn't we turn that around and say that for atheists (and agnostics, albeit to perhaps a somewhat lesser extent), there is no debate to be had over whether or not Christianity is untrue? Yes, we could. So atheists are just as intransigent as they would accuse Christians of being, just... in the opposite direction. Right? Well, right.

Rather this particular forum is designed more for those who call themselves Christians to debate the various claims regarding biblical interpretation. Therein the debate as it is, is central to that theme.

Right. Why should anybody have a problem with that?

The best an Atheist can do hereabouts is point out the contradiction between [Christianity] not wanting to change and debating for change.

No, the best an atheist can do is go over to the apologetics forum. There, an atheist can have all the debate he/she could ever want.

The best Atheists' can hope to receive from such interaction is the data-base which it provides as real evidence - which altogether paints a solid [real] picture of what Christendom actually is and how Christians play into its devices...

Actually, the first debate to be had here is what "data-base" provides evidence that is actually real. And here again, the debate is apropos to the Apologetics forum. And, I'll add that what you say here about "Christendom" -- is applicable to many things. The real problem is lack of humility. Everybody struggles with that, whether they think they do (or not) or realize it (or not). It's the human condition.

(whether one then chooses to fear and tremble at the real-world consequences of Christendom, or react at all any other way, is entirely the individuals choice.)

LOL! Well, in the same way -- again -- whether one chooses to fear and tremble at the real-world (not to mention eternal) consequences of rejection of Christendom -- or react at all any other way, which itself is an implicit rejection of it -- is entirely the individual's choice. Touche', right? Yes, touche'. But again, that's a discussion better suited for the Apologetics forum.

One more thing: that website you provided a link to is... "interesting"... At least their hearts seem to be in the right place, but-tuh... See, this is a big part of the problem -- taking what one fringe group (yes, these people are definitely far outside of the mainstream, though they mean well) is preaching/teaching and applying that across the board, imposing it on all of "Christendom."

Grace and peace to you, William.

[William]

Well, I'm kinda bored, so...

I hope getting that out helped stave away ennui for you. For my part, what you wrote was a reworded and more detailed account of what I said.



Christians are fantabulously confused by their own rhetoric and use of veiled threats from their ranks implying some kind of eternal consequence for those who reject Christendom (being a Christian) through their invention of the idea of hell which (naturally enough) aligns with their idea of a god, allows me to laugh softly at their absurdity.



Unfortunately - not unlike a virus - such beliefs imparted can and do have terrible real-world consequences on the mental health of those who fall prey to such stories but still resist becoming/supporting Christians...which - while that is what the story of hell and demons and damnation are supposed to achieve and why they were invented - are still some of the unkindest propaganda ever to be used upon the human being.

Some Atheists and Agnostics fully realize the truth about Christianity and have big enough hearts to stand up and say so.

[nobspeople]

Well, I'm kinda bored, so...

I hope getting that out helped stave away ennui for you. For my part, what you wrote was a reworded and more detailed account of what I said.



Christians are fantabulously confused by their own rhetoric and use of veiled threats from their ranks implying some kind of eternal consequence for those who reject Christendom (being a Christian) through their invention of the idea of hell which (naturally enough) aligns with their idea of a god, allows me to laugh softly at their absurdity.



Unfortunately - not unlike a virus - such beliefs imparted can and do have terrible real-world consequences on the mental health of those who fall prey to such stories but still resist becoming/supporting Christians...which - while that is what the story of hell and demons and damnation are supposed to achieve and why they were invented - are still some of the unkindest propaganda ever to be used upon the human being.

Some Atheists and Agnostics fully realize the truth about Christianity and have big enough hearts to stand up and say so.

Thank you for that post; it was true and offered a bit of humor as well. It's good to see such a stance taken, especially in here.

Additionally, I think most Atheists and Agnostics don't care what others believe so long as it doesn't interfere with their lives (though there are, of course, exceptions). I think if everyone (believers or no) would simply 'live and let live', most of their heartaches could be avoided and everyone would get along better.
I know Christians don't care much about 'getting along' here, their 'reward' is in Heaven, their God commands them to recruit and on and on and on. But you catch more with honey than vinegar.

People use religion to create divides - why can't we see all see this? Or can we see it and, secretly, enjoy the chaos?

[PinSeeker]

For my part, what you wrote was a reworded and more detailed account of what I said.

Yes, folks certainly see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear... Or, at least they pretend to; it seems to be a very common defensive reaction perceived to have some modicum of effectiveness... More on this in a moment...

Christians are fantabulously confused by their own rhetoric...

Well, that's not altogether untrue; some Christians are, yes, but that would call into question whether they are really Christians or not. Self-deception is certainly a possibility. But there's plenty of that (confusion, self-deception) to go around; Christians certainly don't have a corner on that market. But again, some use rhetoric as a weapon (which, again, can certainly apply to Christians from time to time, but which you do quite often, this "response" being a prime example; again, plenty of that to go around), and that's selfishness, pride, self-righteousness, self-justification, and hypocrisy (among other things, none of them good) rearing their ugly heads. All that said, though, this is just wishful thinking on your part, which is not really thinking, it's just lashing out... flailing, really.

...and use of veiled threats from their ranks implying some kind of eternal consequence for those who reject Christendom (being a Christian)...

<chuckles> Another defense mechanism... Any kind of real threat, "veiled" or otherwise, would carry consequences potentially enacted by the sender/speaker, and that's never really the case. No Christian would claim to have any control over eternal consequences, and would readily say that the same "threat" applies to themselves as well. As an example, if Person A tells Person B that they shouldn't cross a busy thoroughfare without carefully looking both ways and crossing when the coast is clear because they might get hit by a vehicle and killed or maimed, that can't be viewed as a threat with any hint of accuracy because, among other things, the same thing is true for Person One, and at least part of Person One's intention in conveying his/her message is to ensure the safety and well-being of Person Two. Right? Yes.

...through their invention of the idea of hell which (naturally enough) aligns with their idea of a god, allows me to laugh softly at their absurdity.

Even you would have to admit that your statement here is backwards. Which, again, amounts to mere self-righteousness and denial -- defensiveness and self-deception, really -- which is what's really behind that feigned laughter and attempt at derision.

Unfortunately - not unlike a virus - such beliefs imparted can and do have terrible real-world consequences on the mental health of those who fall prey to such stories but still resist becoming/supporting Christians...which - while that is what the story of hell and demons and damnation are supposed to achieve and why they were invented - are still some of the unkindest propaganda ever to be used upon the human being.

Well, between atheists and agnostics, I hear -- over and over again -- the strains of the great Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel: "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." (The Boxer, 1968)

Some Atheists and Agnostics fully realize the truth about Christianity and have big enough hearts to stand up and say so.

They want to think they do, yes. But all of what I've said to this point applies yet again, here. In my view, tearing others down in order to build up oneself (and like-minded people whom they conform themselves to) is is the very opposite of a "big heart." Yes, pride and selfishness (bad things) are the very opposite of humility and selflessness (good things).

Seems to me some self-reflection is in order, but far be it from me to do anything more than recommend such.

Grace and peace to you

[PinSeeker]

I think most Atheists and Agnostics don't care what others believe so long as it doesn't interfere with their lives (though there are, of course, exceptions).

Case in point. Selfishness. But, to each his/her own.

I think if everyone (believers or no) would simply 'live and let live', most of their heartaches could be avoided and everyone would get along better.

That may be, but in many cases, such would be the very opposite of love. The opposite of love is not hate, but rather not caring, or indifference.

I know Christians don't care much about 'getting along' here...

Not true. A wise person once told me that a true friend is not afraid to tell someone that a booger is hanging out of his nose.

...their 'reward' is in Heaven...

True, ultimately speaking, but that's surely not to say that there aren't lesser rewards to be reaped while here on earth, and the knowledge of what you say here should make the Christian infinitely more concerned about the good that he/she does while on earth.

...their God commands them to recruit and on and on and on.

Well, their God commands them to go and spread the good news, and promises that He will do the actual "recruiting." Incidentally, the antithesis of this is true for every other "religion" -- even the "non-religious" religion -- though it manifests itself in different ways.

But you catch more with honey than vinegar.

Winsomeness does have its merits, but... well, in keeping with the "recruiting" rhetoric, if God is going to "recruit" someone, He can use someone's "honey" or "vinegar" alike to accomplish His purposes.

People use religion to create divides - why can't we see all see this?

Meh. People of all walks of life create divisions according to their own selfish preferences. Surely we can all see this.

Or can we see it and, secretly, enjoy the chaos?

I don't enjoy chaos. I endure it. But some do enjoy it, yes. The chaos will end someday, for sure. I long for that great day. When there is only peace. The Prince of Peace will make it so.

Grace and peace.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #530]

nobspeople wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:50 am
I think most Atheists and Agnostics don't care what others believe so long as it doesn't interfere with their lives (though there are, of course, exceptions).
Case in point. Selfishness. But, to each his/her own.

Can you expound on that?

in many cases, such [live and let live] would be the very opposite of love. The opposite of love is not hate, but rather not caring, or indifference.

Not necessarily. You can still love others without trying to make them follow your rules that you adopted for your life. Love others by setting examples for them to follow at their choosing, not trying to make them follow them by force as happens.

I know Christians don't care much about 'getting along' here...
Not true. A wise person once told me that a true friend is not afraid to tell someone that a booger is hanging out of his nose.

What some would consider 'getting along' (in here at least) others would consider berating and sarcasm - boogers or no. I've seen (and I know others have, too) Christians (here and elsewhere) hiding their ability to berate and chastise others behind 'love'. I wonder if they think people don't notice?

...their 'reward' is in Heaven...

True, ultimately speaking, but that's surely not to say that there aren't lesser rewards to be reaped while here on earth, and the knowledge of what you say here should make the Christian infinitely more concerned about the good that he/she does while on earth.

Of course not. Is it the Christian's responsibility or right to try to get others to find what they consider 'joy' or 'reward'? Can't the other person find their own 'joy' and 'reward' on their own without having a Christian interject their own POV?

Incidentally, the antithesis of this is true for every other "religion" -- even the "non-religious" religion -- though it manifests itself in different ways.

Of course. But being this a Christian-based forum....if the show fits.

if God is going to "recruit" someone, He can use someone's "honey" or "vinegar" alike to accomplish His purposes.

Which, for me, is a problem with Christianity (one of several TBH); can't can't do his own work. Lazy much?

People of all walks of life create divisions according to their own selfish preferences. Surely we can all see this.

Should those religious people - who claim direct connection with God - be held to a higher standard over others? I would think so.

[William]

Thank you for that post; it was true and offered a bit of humor as well. It's good to see such a stance taken, especially in here.

Additionally, I think most Atheists and Agnostics don't care what others believe so long as it doesn't interfere with their lives (though there are, of course, exceptions). I think if everyone (believers or no) would simply 'live and let live', most of their heartaches could be avoided and everyone would get along better.
I know Christians don't care much about 'getting along' here, their 'reward' is in Heaven, their God commands them to recruit and on and on and on. But you catch more with honey than vinegar.

People use religion to create divides - why can't we see all see this? Or can we see it and, secretly, enjoy the chaos?

From what I can gather, the evidence shows that Christians (as general) don't realize that they are captured by fake news and believe they are free.
The evidence of this thread content shows us that there is much disagreement among Christians in relation the the doctrine of hell and even in doctrines regarding afterlife concepts.
In that, those who choose - are free to disregard all such news as 'most likely fake' and get about compiling fact from fiction.

Perhaps chaos is enjoyed by many Christians as it pertains to their faith in signs and predictions and view the world as an evil thing they can endure comfortably because so many of them have favorable positions within the systems which operate on disparity and produce said evil - only they believe they are forced to accommodate said systems because Jesus has yet to return and they are instructed to obey the current authorities until then. After centuries of this, it is only natural many Christians have secured positions of authority themselves and are possessive enough about that to make sure they oppose anything which may threaten said positions and this is done through Law and Politics.

A big scam in other words, with the threat of hell and damnation for any who would dare stand against their idea of god.

As has been pointed out, it isn't just Christians involved in the game, but considering they make up the bulk of the numbers, if they were to oppose disparity instead of supporting it, significant positive headway could be made against it.

Mostly I have found that Christians neither know the truth nor wish to be set free from the lies, and so adding their number to the number of non-Christians involved in the same support for disparity, we have a real-world situation which - quite frankly - if one cannot laugh about the absurdity of it, one would descend into a dark place rather swiftly.

It is what it is, is unlikely to change quick enough to make a difference so I zoom out and observe the speck of dust we live on as something which will mercifully kill itself off eventually, as if it had no natural business being here in the first place, experiencing its own madness together, all by itself.

A dramatic poetic somewhat sad comedy