Apologetics & Illness

[Paul of Tarsus]

Unless you live under a rock, then you're all aware that illness is a big factor in our lives. Even if you're very lucky and live free of illness, you probably know somebody who struggles with sickness. How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame. They did believe that various infirmities are caused by demons, and the cure was to cast the demons out. According to the gospel, these healing activities attracted great multitudes of people seeking delivery from their afflictions. So obviously illness was a major factor in the lives of those who were contemporaneous with Jesus.

One thing I've noticed about sickness is that it does not discriminate based on faith. It doesn't care what your beliefs are. That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.

[Miles]

Hmmm. Some of the sources where god says he creates evil.


Isaiah 45:7

KJ21
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.

AMPC
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil; I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

ASV
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

BRG
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

DARBY
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

DRA
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

GNV
I form the light, and create darkness:I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

JUB
I form the light and create darkness;I make peace and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.

KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

AKJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

LEB
I form light and I create darkness; I make peace and I create evil; I am Yahweh; I do all these things.

WYC
forming light, and making darknesses, making peace, and forming evil; I am the Lord, doing all these things.

YLT
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.



.

Here's what the NRSV says (Isaiah 45:7):

I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe;
I the Lord do all these things.

So at least this passage tells us that God didn't really create evil. He has created "woe." This revelation fits the topic of the OP because illness is a kind of woe.

Nope, All the Bibles I quoted agree that God didn't really create woe. He creates (as in, still does) "evil." [Note the word isn't "created," past tense, but "create," present tense.]


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[Overcomer]

As I explained elsewhere, evil, whether natural or moral, is not a created entity like a rock or a tree. I explained that Genesis tells us that everything God created was good and that his creation of man was VERY good. I explained that the disobedience of Adam and Eve brought sin and evil into the world. Sin is not a created entity any more than evil is. I have explained that evil is a blight on the good like a wound on the arm. A wound is not a created entity. It is not caused by God. It is a result of the Fall.

I also explained that the word translated in the KJV as "evil" refers to calamity or woe just as Paul of Tarsus has said in this thread. I also explained that God had to deal harshly with the nation of Israel because he planned to implement salvation through it in the person of Jesus. Therefore, when they strayed, he had to take action to bring them back to him and, as related in Isaiah, he used natural disasters that exist in this fallen world. However, now that his plan has been implemented through Christ's birth, death and resurrection, God does not deal that way with people any more.

God is responsible for good. We are the authors of evil along with the devil and his fallen angels/demons. You can't blame God for our failures. He never wanted us to know evil. That's why he told Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but they didn't trust that he loved them and, therefore, disobeyed. They had free will. Their choice led to the existence of evil in the world.

So I repeat: Evil isn't a created entity and God is not its author.

Perhaps this article will help:

https://www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html

This one is good, too:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don ... t_1379.cfm

And this one:

https://www.christiancourier.com/articl ... reate-evil

[Paul of Tarsus]

How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

You've previously referred to yourself as a Christian apologist. How do you view the problem and what would be your advice to someone dealing with this particular doubt?

I actually started this thread to ask for advice regarding the issue of God and the existence of disease. It's a serious problem that doesn't appear to have any easy solutions. I could offer one of the "traditional canned" Christian responses, but I'm hoping to come up with something that better addresses the issues. I do know that God never promised us sickness-free lives.

[Paul of Tarsus]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #1]

How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

I was taught about excuses for God. God didn't create ANYTHING bad or wrong. That was created by mankind sinning (which God obviously knew would happen and could have prevented that, but my 'teachers' never addressed this issue).

I don't see how anybody can say people created diseases. Diseases are too complicated to have been made by people although human behavior can help disease spread, of course.

As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame.

That's a good and interesting point. I wonder what the % was of sick to healthy people in that time?

Obviously there was a large percentage of people who were living with illnesses at that time. Mortality rates would have been much higher too greatly reducing the numbers of the sick.

That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.

Yes but God will protect them! And they get sick, they make excuses that allow them and their faith to save face

From a theological perspective, you would think that Christians would be safe as they gather to worship.

[theophile]

How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

Maybe the simple answer is that God doesn't have the power. I think that a careful reading of the bible would show that God's power is not complete until the end-times, when God at last becomes all in all, all things become possible for God, and everything is under God's feet. This includes the conquering of death - the ultimate illness.

See, for example, 1 Corinthians 15:26 (and surrounding narrative): "The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

I don't know why people can't get over this pernicious idea that God is some omnipotent super-being out there. Theists and atheists alike. It's not helpful.

[bluegreenearth]

As I explained elsewhere, evil is not a created entity like a rock or a tree. I explained that Genesis tells us that everything God created was good and that his creation of man was VERY good. I explained that the disobedience of Adam and Eve brought sin and evil into the world. Sin is not a created entity any more than evil is. I have explained that evil is a blight on the good like a wound on the arm. A wound is not a created entity. It is not caused by God. It is a result of the Fall.

I also explained that the word translated in the KJV as "evil" refers to calamity or woe just as Paul of Tarsus has said in this thread. I also explained that God had to deal harshly with the nation of Israel because he planned to implement salvation through it in the person of Jesus. Therefore, when they strayed, he had to take action to bring them back to him and, as related in Isaiah, he used natural disasters that exist in this fallen world. However, now that his plan has been implemented through Christ's birth, death and resurrection, God does not deal that way with people any more.

God is responsible for good. We are the authors of evil along with the devil and his fallen angels/demons. You can't blame God for our failures. He never wanted us to know evil. That's why he told Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but they didn't trust that he loved them and, therefore, disobeyed. They had free will. Their choice led to the existence of evil in the world.

So I repeat: Evil isn't a created entity and God is not its author.

How do you account for the moment of Adam and Eve's disobedience if sin and evil did not exist in the world until after they disobeyed God? You insist that sin and evil did not yet exist in the moment just before they ate the forbidden fruit, but this concept is internally incoherent because influence from sin and evil is a necessary prerequisite for the freewill decision to disobey God. Since evil did not yet exist, only good could have existed in that moment. If only good could have existed in that moment, then only good could have influenced their freewill choice to disobey God. Therefore, it is paradoxical to claim that sin and evil did not exist until after Adam and Eve freely chose to disobey God. How do you resolve this paradox because the freewill argument doesn't do it?

As for your claim that God changed his tactics after he implemented his plan for salvation, this argument suggests it wasn't possible for God to have implemented a more efficient plan for salvation much sooner. Your reasoning here is just as incoherent as the reasoning you've supplied for the origins of sin and evil. Would it not be reasonable to expect an omnipotent and omniscient God to have predicted the failures of humanity in advance and postpone the creation of Adam and Eve until he conceived of a version that wouldn't require a plan for salvation? Again, the freewill argument doesn't resolve this problem either because an omniscient and omnipotent God would have the option to only create the humans he knew would make the freewill decision to obey him. What would be the point in God proceeding with a creation he already knows will fail and require a subsequent plan for salvation? Even fallible humans who have a limited ability to make some accurate predictions regarding something they propose to create would abandon or modify the project design if the thing they intended to create is predicted to fail in some way. How do you explain the incongruencies between what is claimed about God's plan for humanity and what logic dictates the plan could have and should have been? Someone else in this thread (presumably a theist) has already proposed that maybe God is not omnipotent or omniscient. Would you agree with that proposal?

[brunumb]

As I explained elsewhere, evil, whether natural or moral, is not a created entity like a rock or a tree. I explained that Genesis tells us that everything God created was good and that his creation of man was VERY good. I explained that the disobedience of Adam and Eve brought sin and evil into the world.

If sin and evil are not created entities like rocks or trees, exactly how are they brought into the world?

[brunumb]

Maybe the simple answer is that God doesn't have the power.

An even simpler answer is that disease is a natural outcome of the processes involved in evolution and there is no god involved at all.

[Miles]

As I explained elsewhere, evil, whether natural or moral, is not a created entity like a rock or a tree. I explained that Genesis tells us that everything God created was good and that his creation of man was VERY good. I explained that the disobedience of Adam and Eve brought sin and evil into the world. Sin is not a created entity any more than evil is. I have explained that evil is a blight on the good like a wound on the arm. A wound is not a created entity. It is not caused by God. It is a result of the Fall.

I also explained that the word translated in the KJV as "evil" refers to calamity or woe just as Paul of Tarsus has said in this thread. I also explained that God had to deal harshly with the nation of Israel because he planned to implement salvation through it in the person of Jesus. Therefore, when they strayed, he had to take action to bring them back to him and, as related in Isaiah, he used natural disasters that exist in this fallen world. However, now that his plan has been implemented through Christ's birth, death and resurrection, God does not deal that way with people any more.

You may have explained all this elsewhere, which may count for something there, but as for your post here, your claims are no more meaningful than those made for Noah's ark, the Loch Ness monster, or flying saucers. Gotta have some kind of evidence or at least a compelling argument. Mere statement just doesn't do it.

God is responsible for good. We are the authors of evil along with the devil and his fallen angels/demons. You can't blame God for our failures. He never wanted us to know evil. That's why he told Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but they didn't trust that he loved them and, therefore, disobeyed. They had free will. Their choice led to the existence of evil in the world.

Sure we can blame God for our failures. We never asked that he imbue us with sin and a predilection for misdeeds. He chose that we be born with them. And he admitted that he creates evil, (see post 4) and made sure we would participate in it. All of which is no more moral than making everyone, millions of people, on Earth suffer for the mistake of two people. Think that's fair? I certainly don't. I'd hate to think my great, great, great grandchildren will suffer for some crime I committed. But the god of Abraham has a far different moral compass, one, that in my opinion, doesn't deserve the defense Christians try to mount for it. In fact, as the tale is told in your bible, IMO the god of Abraham comes off as pretty despicable.

So I repeat: Evil isn't a created entity and God is not its author.

Sorry, but cherry-picking your bible so as to establish a coherent theology and constructing an apologetic that purposely ignores your source's statement that says

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things."

simply doesn't sell. Tell it to the choir.




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[theophile]

Maybe the simple answer is that God doesn't have the power.

An even simpler answer is that disease is a natural outcome of the processes involved in evolution and there is no god involved at all.

I don't think that's what the OP was asking though, now was it? It was more, how do you reconcile God and illness, not what other explanations are out there if we throw the whole God concept out.

So, happy to have a convo on the former if you have a meaningful reply.