Apologetics & Illness

[Paul of Tarsus]

Unless you live under a rock, then you're all aware that illness is a big factor in our lives. Even if you're very lucky and live free of illness, you probably know somebody who struggles with sickness. How can illness be explained within the context of Christianity? Why would a God allow sickness?

As far as I know, neither Jesus nor any of his apostles were ever said to be sick. None of them are described as blind, deaf, or lame. They did believe that various infirmities are caused by demons, and the cure was to cast the demons out. According to the gospel, these healing activities attracted great multitudes of people seeking delivery from their afflictions. So obviously illness was a major factor in the lives of those who were contemporaneous with Jesus.

One thing I've noticed about sickness is that it does not discriminate based on faith. It doesn't care what your beliefs are. That's why, for example, people gathering to worship is strongly discouraged due to the risk of Covid 19.

[JehovahsWitness]

Because it is not yet His time to reverse the effects of Adamic sin.

So if you come down with the flu, then you attribute it to Adam's sin?

Ultimately yes. Flu is caused by a virus but biblically a perfect body would be able to cope with anything our naturel environnement presented it with; according to the bible we do not have perfect bodies because of what Adam did. So ultimately influenza (and cancer, and all sickness) is "caused" by Adam.

We die for the same reason.



JW


FURTHER READING What Does the Bible Say About Pandemics?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... s-disease/

[brunumb]

Flu is caused by a virus but biblically a perfect body would be able to cope with anything our naturel environnement presented it with; according to the bible we do not have perfect bodies because of what Adam did. So ultimately influenza (and cancer, and all sickness) is "caused" by Adam.

Please explain exactly what happened to Adam's body as a result of what he did that resulted in an imperfect body. What causes cancer and how did it originate from the actions of Adam? Why did God create the multitude of pathogens that attack human bodies causing diseases and death?

[Paul of Tarsus]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #30]

So if you come down with the flu, then you attribute it to Adam's sin?

Not trying to speak for anyone else, but YES, this is what I was taught, in a sense.
Basically, everything "bad" was a direct result of humanity's sin. Which never made sense then and still doesn't, logically. But this is what's taught in many Christian churches.

What you're posting here is one of the reasons apologetics is in such disarray. Is a sick woman to believe her illness originated six thousand years ago when a snake turned out to be more convincing than an all-mighty God? With "answers" like that, it's no wonder we are losing the culture war.

But to put it less like a fundamentalist, the Fall involved people betraying God. As a result of that betrayal, God allowed suffering to enter the world.

[JehovahsWitness]

Please explain exactly what happened to Adam's body as a result of what he did that resulted in an imperfect body.

I cannot do that since the bible does not provided that information.

What it does indicate however, as I said is that being a direct creation of God he was perfect but that his disobedience resulted in his dying from old age or sickness, and that this physical eventuality would not have happened had he not sinned (compare Deut 32:4; Rom 5:12)




JW





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ORIGINAL SIN , SICKNESS and .... DEATH

[William]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #35]

The information the bible does provide shows us that, if Adam had even been created half-way decent, let alone being a direct creation of God and created "perfect", he would not have allowed his wife to be so manipulated by the Serpent while simply quietly just being an onlooker to the temptation taking place before him - as the bible tells us plainly - he was with Eve at the time.

So the argument that Adam was created perfect falls on it's face right there.

As far as the story goes, an omniscient being created Adam, so the being would have known what Adam would do in relation to Adams condition and in creating this universe to confine Adam within, would have also known exactly how things would play out, because - well a omnisceint being would be perfect in that knowledge.

How much knowledge the god imparted to Adam is unknown. What is known though, is that the god did not impart all knowledge to Adam. The god just told Adam "you will surely die" and did not go into the details of what that inevitably entailed (according to the mythology.)

We can assume that the universe is 'good' as far as the god was concerned in relation to its purpose as far as containing human beings (created with free will) goes. Like a prison is 'good' for containing undesirable individuals...

But we cannot assume that Adam was created as a perfect being, since even BEFORE the [omniscient] god created the free will being and naming him "Adam", the god would have known how Adam would choose to use free will. The presence of the forbidden fruit and the tempting Serpent were simply triggers. The god would have known how that would turn out BEFORE he created the whole environment and placed Adam into it.

If we are to go along with the idea that Adam was created perfect, we could only conclude that - that being the case - no human is imperfect in the eyes of the god who created them IF we also assume that the god knows that in some distant future this free will being will turns out just fine and so the process from the one condition to the other is simply the same process seen and experienced from various points within it, and is only 'good' or 'perfect' in relation to that end result - but not so much for those experiencing it as 'evil' or 'imperfect' while they are within it.

Which is to say, that IF anyone within it chooses of their own free will to see no imperfection regarding it because they trust that the god who created it knows everything will work out fine for all involved once the process is complete, THEN one is free to use their will to gain useful knowledge rather than be distracted by the pursuit of trying to understand good and/or evil and form judgments along the way regarding it.

[William]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #30]

So if you come down with the flu, then you attribute it to Adam's sin?

Not trying to speak for anyone else, but YES, this is what I was taught, in a sense.
Basically, everything "bad" was a direct result of humanity's sin. Which never made sense then and still doesn't, logically. But this is what's taught in many Christian churches.

What you're posting here is one of the reasons apologetics is in such disarray. Is a sick woman to believe her illness originated six thousand years ago when a snake turned out to be more convincing than an all-mighty God? With "answers" like that, it's no wonder we are losing the culture war.

But to put it less like a fundamentalist, the Fall involved people betraying God. As a result of that betrayal, God allowed suffering to enter the world.

The only way a god can be betrayed is if the god is not omniscient. Since Middle Eastern mythology (including Christianity) claims the god is omniscient, there is no way for the god to be betrayed as the god already knows that will happen BEFORE he creates the environment which allows for it to happen.

So the fall cannot have been because the god was betrayed by Adam.

[Paul of Tarsus]

The only way a god can be betrayed is if the god is not omniscient. Since Middle Eastern mythology (including Christianity) claims the god is omniscient, there is no way for the god to be betrayed as the god already knows that will happen BEFORE he creates the environment which allows for it to happen.

So the fall cannot have been because the god was betrayed by Adam.

The God of the Bible is clearly not omniscient. He needs to test people to determine what they will do. In the case of the Fall, Eve and Adam disobeyed God, and we all suffer the consequences.

The whole story makes sense when you understand that the theme of the story is obedience to authority. Eve and Adam's mistake was to disobey God's order not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It seemed so unreasonable to them that eating fruit from that tree could do any harm. However, as far as God is concerned what seemed reasonable to them just didn't matter--they were to obey regardless of what they thought was right or wrong.

[Tcg]

Because it is not yet His time to reverse the effects of Adamic sin.

So if you come down with the flu, then you attribute it to Adam's sin?

Ultimately yes. Flu is caused by a virus but biblically a perfect body would be able to cope with anything our naturel environnement presented it with; according to the bible we do not have perfect bodies because of what Adam did. So ultimately influenza (and cancer, and all sickness) is "caused" by Adam.

We die for the same reason.

This is an odd assertion given that the Genesis 3 fable doesn't include any curses against Adam. The serpent is cursed. Women are cursed due to Eve. The earth is cursed because of Adam. The only physical ailment listed as a result of "the fall" is that women will have pain during labor. No mention of the flu, cancer, or any other sickness certainly not any as a result of virus.

This is course isn't the first time the bible has been added to and it certainly won't be the last. You'd think a book inspired by a God wouldn't need such additions, but time after time we find them used to explain issues the bible never addresses.


Tcg

[William]

The only way a god can be betrayed is if the god is not omniscient. Since Middle Eastern mythology (including Christianity) claims the god is omniscient, there is no way for the god to be betrayed as the god already knows that will happen BEFORE he creates the environment which allows for it to happen.

So the fall cannot have been because the god was betrayed by Adam.

The God of the Bible is clearly not omniscient.

How can we really know that?

He needs to test people to determine what they will do.

Some think so, others do not. If you think he has to test what he creates, then he seems more the scientist than a god .

In the case of the Fall, Eve and Adam disobeyed God, ...

Some think that and others do not. For example, I think Adam letting Eve be tempted by the Serpent is questionable and happened BEFORE he partook of the forbidden fruit, but is there any indication in doing so, he was disobeying the god?

...and we all suffer the consequences.

Apparent cause and effect.

The whole story makes sense when you understand that the theme of the story is obedience to authority.

If the god is not omniscient, why is there any requirement to trust him or his authority or his actions or words or anything about him?

Eve and Adam's mistake was to disobey God's order not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Imperfectly created beings would naturally do such a thing, given both the tree and the tempter where created and placed/allowed in the Garden by the god.

It seemed so unreasonable to them that eating fruit from that tree could do any harm. However, as far as God is concerned what seemed reasonable to them just didn't matter--they were to obey regardless of what they thought was right or wrong.

They therefore couldn't have known or had thoughts concerning issues of right or wrong until after they had partaken of the fruit of said knowledge of good and evil...until then, they would have been unable to distinguish between the states, as their nakedness appears to verify.

Generally your argument from the position that the god in the mythology is NOT omniscient, has it that regardless of his claims he created the world and everything on it 'and it was "good"' according to said god, does not equate to someone who should be trusted and blindly obeyed as if humans were created robots, rather than free will beings.
Free will beings would naturally question and doubt such claims from such a being....

[brunumb]

Please explain exactly what happened to Adam's body as a result of what he did that resulted in an imperfect body.

I cannot do that since the bible does not provided that information.

What it does indicate however, as I said is that being a direct creation of God he was perfect but that his disobedience resulted in his dying from old age or sickness, and that this physical eventuality would not have happened had he not sinned (compare Deut 32:4; Rom 5:12)

Very convenient absence of information. That's just a case of filling in the gaps with whatever one's personal biases prefer.

Not everyone gets cancer. Not everyone succumbs to viruses and other pathogens. Why is that the case if we are all descendants of Adam and have inherited his imperfections? How did those imperfections arise as a direct consequence of the act of sinning? If they were not there before, we can only conclude that they were introduced by God, presumably as an act of retribution. Saying that the act of sinning allowed disease and death to enter the world is a bit like suggesting that you can change your skin colour just by thinking about it.