Is the Second Coming of Jesus a Hoax?

[Rational Atheist]

For debate:

Is the Second Coming of Jesus a Hoax?

Arguably the most important doctrine of Christianity is the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ, also known as the "Final Judgment." This is the key event that Christians look forward to--the event when Jesus comes down from the clouds of Heaven, to rescue the righteous believers and save them from the wrath of God, while raining merciless judgment upon the unbelievers in the fires of Hell. But what most Christians likely don't know about this "second coming" is that the Bible actually predicted that it would occur soon after Jesus walked the earth. And, as it turns out, the Bible actually says that Jesus predicted exactly when it would occur, and, clearly, this timeframe has passed.

Mark 13:9-30 states:

9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

So, apparently, the second coming was supposed to occur within the generation alive during Jesus' time. But many apologists object to this and claim that the "generation" referred to in the Mark passage is either referring to a future generation, or means something other than the standard definition of the word "generation." And this objection could be valid IF there were not other scriptures containing the exact same language (and hence the same prophecy) that used different language to specify when the events would occur. As it turns out, Matthew Chapter 10 contains the exact same prophecies (I have underlined the common words), and further specifies that these events would take place within the disciples' lifetimes, specifically, they would be rescued before they finished running away from their persecutors, through the cities of Israel, as we can read in Matthew 10:16-23:

“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


Take note of the underlined passages. Mark 13:9-13 and Matthew 10:17-22 contain nearly the exact same words, so there is no question that they are referring to the same events. The second coming of Christ (along with the destruction of the solar system, the earth, and many of the stars) was supposed to occur, according to the bible, within the lifetimes of the people alive in Jesus' time, so no later than 100 AD. Obviously this didn't happen. So, in my opinion, we are forced to conclude that the return of Christ is a fable, in the same class as the 2012 doomsday hoax, and other failed Armageddon predictions.

[historia]

I'm not all that familiar with the the book of Daniel so I had to review it a bit, but, like the book of Revelation, I don't find any poetry in it.

Emphasis MINE

How do you yourself distinguish between poetry and prose? What would have alerted you the presence of poerty in Revelation or Daniel?

If it went like this:

I always hug my underwear
as soon as it is dry
I hug all the laundry
Let me tell you why
If you open up your dryer
as soon as it is done
your pile of clothes will warm you
like a blanket made of Sun!

Author: Amy Ludwig VanDerwater

By this I assume you mean that, in modern English, we tend to format poetry into stanzas, as illustrated in the poem above.

If so, you are in luck! Following that same convention, when a book of the Bible shifts to poetic verse, some modern English translations, like the NRSV, will format the text in poetic verse.

If you just skim over Daniel 7, for example, you'll see that vs. 9-10, 13-14 and 23-27 are poetry. Likewise, if you look at, say, Revelation 19 you'll see that most of the verses are poetry.

[Miles]

I'm not all that familiar with the the book of Daniel so I had to review it a bit, but, like the book of Revelation, I don't find any poetry in it.

Emphasis MINE

How do you yourself distinguish between poetry and prose? What would have alerted you the presence of poerty in Revelation or Daniel?

If it went like this:

I always hug my underwear
as soon as it is dry
I hug all the laundry
Let me tell you why
If you open up your dryer
as soon as it is done
your pile of clothes will warm you
like a blanket made of Sun!

Author: Amy Ludwig VanDerwater

By this I assume you mean that, in modern English, we tend to format poetry into stanzas, as illustrated in the poem above.

If so, you are in luck! Following that same convention, when a book of the Bible shifts to poetic verse, some modern English translations, like the NRSV, will format the text in poetic verse.

If you just skim over Daniel 7, for example, you'll see that vs. 9-10, 13-14 and 23-27 are poetry. Likewise, if you look at, say, Revelation 19 you'll see that most of the verses are poetry.

But what if these verses aren't put into stanza form. Would you have any reason to call them poetic? I highly doubt it.

From the KJV

Daniel 7:9-10 +
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


Daniel 7:13-14 +
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.


Daniel 7:23-27 +
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.


Rev 19:1-21
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5. . . .

So whether or not Bible verses appear in stanza form or paragraph form is the decision of a Bible's translators. And obviously the translators of the King James Version, as well as those of the International Standard Version, the American Standard Version, the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition, the Evangelical Heritage Version, and many others don't consider your sample verses here to be poetry.


.

[Tcg]

So whether or not Bible verses appear in stanza form or paragraph form is the decision of a Bible's translators.

Precisely. There is clearly no indication in the earliest biblical manuscripts of this stanza form. The following is from 2 Corinthians:



This clearly doesn't even contain punctuation much less indentations to indicate stanzas. To claim that the stanzas used in some translations is a clear indication of poetry reveals a clear misunderstanding or intentional misrepresentation of the history of biblical transmission and translation. One doesn't have to be an expert in koine Greek to recognize this obvious fact.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

How do you yourself distinguish between poetry and prose? What would have alerted you the presence of poerty in Revelation or Daniel?

If it went like this:

I always hug my underwear
as soon as it is dry
I hug all the laundry
Let me tell you why
If you open up your dryer
as soon as it is done
your pile of clothes will warm you
like a blanket made of Sun!

Author: Amy Ludwig VanDerwater

By this I assume you mean that, in modern English, we tend to format poetry into stanzas, as illustrated in the poem above.

I don't think we can assume STANZA is what Miles was trying to refer to.


Miles could have had in mind any number of the poetic devices used in the poem he quoted (rhyme, meter, anaphora, enjambment, repetition, imagery, simile.. to name but a few ) and since he has not actually answered the question it would be putting words into his mouths to make that assumption.

• what poetic techniques/literary devices are you pointing to in the above quotation that you would expect to fine in another work, so as to identify it as "poetry"?

• Do you believe ALL such devices must be employed in a work to thus qualify?

• And do you feel you could identify said devices in a language other than English?

As yet all we know for sure is he has simply quoted a poem and said the rather nebulous.... {quote} "If it went like this" {end quote}Those five words "If it went like this" is all we have to go on until he elaborates.





JW

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #10]

OK, fair enough, so you don't believe the stars falling to earth thing is literal. How about the "Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory" in Mark 13:26? Is that literal? ....

No I don't take that to be literal either.

.... If it's not literal, then just what does the second coming mean to you?

As one of Jehovah's Witneses I believe it is the specific moment in the near future, when Jesus as a mighty spirit starts to judge all humanity, kill off the incorrigibly wicked and battle Satan and his demonic forces.





JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to

THE LAST DAYS , .THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

*The Return of Christ

[historia]

Following that same convention, when a book of the Bible shifts to poetic verse, some modern English translations, like the NRSV, will format the text in poetic verse.

If you just skim over Daniel 7, for example, you'll see that vs. 9-10, 13-14 and 23-27 are poetry. Likewise, if you look at, say, Revelation 19 you'll see that most of the verses are poetry.

But what if these verses aren't put into stanza form. Would you have any reason to call them poetic?

Of course. Scholars have long noted that Hebrew and Greek poetry follows discernible patterns -- such as rhythm and parallelism -- just as English poetry follows certain discernible patterns. And so you can also check the works of scholars to confirm these passages are poetic.

The literature on this is voluminous, but you might start with the Encyclopedia Britannica article on the Psalms for a brief discussion about how to tell when Hebrew text is poetic.

So whether or not Bible verses appear in stanza form or paragraph form is the decision of a Bible's translators.

Yeah, that's what I said. Some modern English translations format the text using this stanza form as a visual cue to modern English readers that the underlying Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek verses are poetic.

So, if you want a quick-and-easy way to see where there is poetic verse in the Bible, just look for this formatting. Alternately, you can consult various historical-critical commentaries on the Bible. Or, if you're up to it, you can study ancient Hebrew and Greek to a sufficient degree to discern the poetic verses yourself.

And obviously the translators of the King James Version, as well as those of the International Standard Version, the American Standard Version, the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition, the Evangelical Heritage Version, and many others don't consider your sample verses here to be poetry.

I'm afraid you're jumping to an unfounded conclusion here. The KJV, ASV, and many other translations don't set out to visually distinguish poetry from prose in the fist place, so the fact that they format all verses the same way -- even verses that are expressly poetry like the Psalms -- doesn't indicate anything.

[historia]

So whether or not Bible verses appear in stanza form or paragraph form is the decision of a Bible's translators.

Precisely. There is clearly no indication in the earliest biblical manuscripts of this stanza form.

Since nobody said that the ancient biblical manuscripts use modern stanza formatting, we can safely dismiss this red herring.

To claim that the stanzas used in some translations is a clear indication of poetry reveals a clear misunderstanding or intentional misrepresentation of the history of biblical transmission and translation.

This is simply wrong.

If translators, who are experts in ancient Hebrew and Greek, recognize that a verse of the Bible contains the discernible patterns of Hebrew and Greek poetry, and then format their English translation in such a way as to provide a visual cue to modern readers that the original text is poetic, then those visual cues are, by definition, a clear indication of poetry in the original text.

[historia]

I don't think we can assume STANZA is what Miles was trying to refer to.

Indeed, I (somewhat awkwardly) hijacked your discussion with Miles in order to make the point that some modern English translations provide a quick-and-easy way to identify poetic verse in the Bible.

Miles could have had in mind any number of the poetic devices used in the poem he quoted (rhyme, meter, anaphora, enjambment, repetition, imagery, simile.. to name but a few )

Agreed. You were about to point out to Miles that we can identify poetry in any language based on certain discernible patterns and linguistic features, and that ancient Hebrew and Greek poetry have their own patterns and features that can be discerned. But I short-circuited that for you, apologies.

[SeekerofTruth]

I’m following along as best I can with time available. I have a question for you all. What’s the point? All literature is figurative. It is a passing on of information from my thoughts to your thoughts. Because language is limited to interpretation it will never be exact. Take “horn” for example. The word could be translated projection. Because we have more words to convey meaning we can better deduce and give shape to thought. When I read and translate scripture word by word often it paints a very different picture than ones delivered to us. Some things have been translated improper to satisfy church bias. It is more simple to understand when you see the meanings of the words rather than counts and stanzas.

[Rational Atheist]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #56]

How do you explain Matthew 10:23 and Matthew 16:28?