Prayer

[POI]

Does God fulfill petitionary and/or intercessory prayer requests?

Thank you in advance

[Tcg]

What if there is no reasonable natural explanation?

Well, that's God's specialty isn't it. Of course as we continue to understand the natural world God shrinks smaller and smaller. Outside of a few holdouts he'll soon be nothing at all.


Tcg

[POI]

[Replying to 1213 in post #12]

If petitionary and/or intercessory prayer requests are made for the removal of one with cerebral palsy, downs syndrome, and/or are requesting the return of an amputated limb, then God is objectively not fulfilling such prayer requests; ever.

I dont know, but even if He did, some could say it was some natural cause.

If one went to a church, where a faith healer was present, and asked to cure them of their amputation, cerebral palsy, and/or downs syndrome, and the faith healer laid hands upon them, and their amputation, CP, or downs syndrome was then reversed/resolved; would it then be logical to claim it was from 'natural causes?' No, the faith healer would take full credit, and give the glory to the 'god' for which they attest to...

All the continued skeptic could then do, is try to prove that it was nothing more than a trick, an illusion, or magic. If such a faith healer went around curing amputees, CP, and downs, it would be logical, and safe to say that such acts were not of any 'natural causes', right?

But the fact that no one is being granted answers to such prayer request, means that your prior statement is objectively false. God does not grant all prayer requests. God rejects, 100% of the time, requests from amputees, CP, and downs... Which looks to contradict Biblical assertions.

[POI]

Does God fulfill petitionary and/or intercessory prayer requests?

Thank you in advance

The churches I've been to taught the answer is YES, but they always added the caveat that 'within his will'. Which seems to defeat the purpose of these type of prayers really, but whatever.
If prayers 'go into the ether' (aka there is no god to hear them) and they help the persons praying or being prayed for (even if it a placebo-like effect), I say go for it.

Yes, if the prayer is only answered, if it already complies with His will, then yes, prayer is basically rendered meaningless --> for the ones praying for some specific desired outcome.

However, many believers state God answers prayer. If this is indeed the case, it looks as though He answers some prayers, but other times, 100% of the time, reject other requests ---> such as amputees, CP, and downs.

What does the believer have to say about this observed fact?

[OnceConvinced]

God did it is rational, because there is nothing in nature that supports the idea that life could come into existence from dead material on its own.

Who says that life came into existence from dead material? That sounds like a strawman.

But even so, just because you can see no way why life would come from dead material does not increase the likelihood that a god is involved. That's a logical fallacy. a False Dilemma

If that would be possible, we should be able to observe it in nature, or at least make it happen in laboratory, in such way that could at least in theory happen in nature, without human or other causing it.

We see life coming from natural processes. We NEVER see life being created by any gods.

Which is maybe little funny, because even if I work and get money, I think God is to be thanked for that.

You are clearly giving credit where it is not due. You are the one going into work and doing the job, not God. Once again you point to a natural thing and try to claim God is the one responsible.

I think everything I have is because of God. And I am thankful for Him for that I have enough everything.

I think you are lucky to be born where you are born and not in a country where people's needs are not being met.

But, in the example you gave, I think there are at least two things to consider:

1. God doesnt have to violate free will to make someone to give money. He could convince the person to think it is a good idea and then the person does it because he wants to do it, by his own free will.

That is why I gave the 2nd example of laying you on someone's heart.

2. Even if God would not give the idea to the person, it is possible that God knows there is a random guy who is going to do it and leads me to that person and so I happen to get it and thank God for the opportunity.

Why would any god need to be involved in that? Most people have compassion and empathy. No God is needed to twist someone's arm to be charitable.

Let me ask you another question. If you have an apparent answered prayer, how do you determine whether it's as a result of something natural or a result of something supernatural?

Maybe it cant be known.

Then you have no good reason to believe it's supernatural.

I say I believe; it is enough for me.

So you don't care about truth then? You go with what makes you feel good. Are you okay with going around telling people that God answers prayer simply because you believe it? Isn't that encouraging people to pray rather than take some kind of action?

I know of an orphanage in Uganda. There is a Facebook page for them and you have all these Christians on there, every time there is a problem at the orphanage and it's "Oh, we'll pray for you." But that's all they do. Nothing else. Meanwhile, it's mainly the atheists who are actually giving money to help the orphanage. Prayer clearly doesn't help them which is why they are always begging for funds.

No doubt Christians will claim it was their prayers that resulted in people giving money, but that. to me. is sickening and an excuse not to make any real sacrifice to help.

One example of my prayer is that when I was much younger, I read about Solomon, how he asked wisdom,

Solomon didn't receive much in the way of wisdom. Most of what he did after that was considered, even by bible scholars, foolish. Solomon was one of the most foolish men in the bible! LOL.

I trust to God and I am sure He hears my prayers, but I dont have the need to convince everyone to believe that God really answers.

According to the bible you should:

1 Peter 3:15
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to every man who asketh you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear."

But I dont think there is anything to lose, in praying.

If you are praying instead of taking action, then there could be major ramifications, for others as well as yourself. eg, Praying for starving children, rather than sending money to help is likely to result in a lot more deaths of children.

I prayed for years for many things, but it wasn't until I started to take drastic action that I got results. If I'd taken action earlier, I would have accomplished so much more, a lot sooner.

At the time I took action, I believed that the results of that action were due to the praying and seeking God I did. But I later realised I had no good reason to believe that. The fact of the matter is, I got what I prayed for due to my actions, not due to anything done by any god.

I no longer see any good reason to believe God is answering anyone's prayer, especially when it seems that natural forces are at work when it comes to those prayers.

I wonder, when you asked for Wisdom, did you start spending more time studying the bible? More time seeking wise counsel maybe? Reading more Christian literature?

From what you are telling me it doesn't sound like God made you miraculously wise over night. Maybe you already had that wisdom and you just weren't utilizing it in a way that you think a god might want?

And if you ask something that is not good, perhaps you should understand that the answer can be "no".

Yes, there's always an excuse for unanswered prayer, isn't there? Even when you ask for good things. And even if you did get an apparent yes, even you admit that it's about faith, because you have no way of knowing for sure whether anything supernatural was involved, as it "Can't be known."

Humans are pattern seeking creatures. They look for patterns and try to assign significance to them, even if there is no significance. So if you get what you pray for, it's only natural for a human to conclude that it was a result of their prayer, whether the prayer was made to a god, fairies, bigfoot or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. But in no way does that mean it was a result of that prayer.

And another. If I pray to a fairy and get a positive result, am I justified in saying that a fairy answered my prayer? If not, why not?

I think you are free to believe whatever you want. But perhaps I would need to know first, why you did so and what did you ask.

The thing is, people believe in all sorts of wacky things. People believe in different gods all over the world, and they all insist their gods answer their prayers and do things for them. There needs to be some way that people can judge whether their prayer resulted in a supernatural response, but there is no way, as you yourself have admitted. So if there is no way to determine whether a prayer has a supernatural outcome, then why believe in supernatural outcomes?

[nobspeople]

Does God fulfill petitionary and/or intercessory prayer requests?

Thank you in advance

The churches I've been to taught the answer is YES, but they always added the caveat that 'within his will'. Which seems to defeat the purpose of these type of prayers really, but whatever.
If prayers 'go into the ether' (aka there is no god to hear them) and they help the persons praying or being prayed for (even if it a placebo-like effect), I say go for it.

Yes, if the prayer is only answered, if it already complies with His will, then yes, prayer is basically rendered meaningless --> for the ones praying for some specific desired outcome.

However, many believers state God answers prayer. If this is indeed the case, it looks as though He answers some prayers, but other times, 100% of the time, reject other requests ---> such as amputees, CP, and downs.

What does the believer have to say about this observed fact?

Probably half truths, contorted verses taken out of context, lies, challenges to your understanding of their faith, excuses, and on and on.
At least based on what I've observed on here.

[POI]

I was going to create a new topic, but instead decided to 'resurrect' this one. Assuming God does answer the call to petitionary and/or intercessory prayer(s), why do we not see any existing amputees, downs syndrome, and/or cerebral palsy cases going away?

Thus far, one could make the case that there would be no truly distinguishable way to determine a <'god intervention' (vs) a 'natural' explanation>. But it seems this argument could only be made for cases where some things do sometimes go away; like the reversal of many disease processes (for example).

Where amputees, downs syndrome, and/or cerebral palsy are concerned, seems as though if we are to consider the aforementioned response (1. yes, 2. no, 3. later, 4. alternative plans), options 1. and 3. are off the table. Why? Option 1. is never fulfilled. All such recipients retain such conditions until they die. Option 3. is never fulfilled. All such recipients retain such conditions until they die.

Thus, leaving options 2. and 4. for investigation:

If option 2, then wouldn't this make the following Biblical Verses objectively false (i.e.) Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23?

If option 4, then isn't your prayer request perpetually worthless, in regards to a request for any amputees, downs syndrome, and/or cerebral palsy cases going away?

[TRANSPONDER]

It is proof that God is in fact an Extraterrestrial Flying saucer Occupant, because He follows the same prime directive:

"Whatever you do, don't allow yourself to be Revealed". This is explained in the UFO flying school "Top Sun" class: "Let people know you're there, but not in a way that it's not just as likely to be a mistake, misunderstanding or misrepresentation. It's the motto on the badge: "Stay Hidden" ".

There's plenty of evidence for 'UFO's but nothing that really convinces, Anecdotal claims, unexplained sighting s that could have various explanations and hard evidence that either looks faked or mysteriously vanishes in a conspiracy theory heist.

"Always remember, a shedload of bad evidence adds up to Good evidence".

So God doesn't answer prayers other than the kind that happen for people of other Faiths or none (1) or are the kind that sound like an unverifiable anecdote when the recipient tells them. Messages from Flying saucer pilots are uncannily like end of world prophecies. They don't happen, except retrospectively.

I needn't labour the study that found that prayer did not actually work on hospital patients. But I haven't seen for a while the 'dead come to life' claims which tended to backfire like the 'My mother was dying of cancer...' story because that one got told far too many times.

No, Prayer only works on the fortune -teller principle. It sometimes happens, sometimes happens later. Prayer is even better off because God can answer prayers with 'No' which is under the category not of evidence but excuses as to why there is no evidence. Which requires an existent Faith to prop up. I recall some dude posted that prayer wasn't for God anyway but for humans. Well of course. It's a mental exercise to keep the Faith going. It accomplishes nothing else.

(1) A 'Miracle' happened to me - but of course I wasn't praying.

[JoeyKnothead]

Does God fulfill petitionary and/or intercessory prayer requests?

Can you suggest any set of criteria that could be used to distinguish a naturally occurring outcome from an outcome that was the result of God's intervention? If not, then there is no way to tell.

Them ones it is I'm happy about, them's God.

All others are either Satan, or the ex-wife, but I can't tell them two apart.

[nobspeople]

It is proof that God is in fact an Extraterrestrial Flying saucer Occupant, because He follows the same prime directive:

"Whatever you do, don't allow yourself to be Revealed". This is explained in the UFO flying school "Top Sun" class: "Let people know you're there, but not in a way that it's not just as likely to be a mistake, misunderstanding or misrepresentation. It's the motto on the badge: "Stay Hidden" ".

There's plenty of evidence for 'UFO's but nothing that really convinces, Anecdotal claims, unexplained sighting s that could have various explanations and hard evidence that either looks faked or mysteriously vanishes in a conspiracy theory heist.

"Always remember, a shedload of bad evidence adds up to Good evidence".

So God doesn't answer prayers other than the kind that happen for people of other Faiths or none (1) or are the kind that sound like an unverifiable anecdote when the recipient tells them. Messages from Flying saucer pilots are uncannily like end of world prophecies. They don't happen, except retrospectively.

I needn't labour the study that found that prayer did not actually work on hospital patients. But I haven't seen for a while the 'dead come to life' claims which tended to backfire like the 'My mother was dying of cancer...' story because that one got told far too many times.

No, Prayer only works on the fortune -teller principle. It sometimes happens, sometimes happens later. Prayer is even better off because God can answer prayers with 'No' which is under the category not of evidence but excuses as to why there is no evidence. Which requires an existent Faith to prop up. I recall some dude posted that prayer wasn't for God anyway but for humans. Well of course. It's a mental exercise to keep the Faith going. It accomplishes nothing else.

(1) A 'Miracle' happened to me - but of course I wasn't praying.

For some, prayer seems to be an act of convenience; something that makes them comfortable and, at times, self righteous.
I was once told there's always an answer to prayer: yes, no or wait.
Specious reasoning at best, but when one's talking about an invisible being that even its followers can't all agree upon - a being that is quoted but some say 'well, what he really meant was...' - specious reasoning is all that's available outside of hope, need and wants.

[TRANSPONDER]

Yes. Again it's like debating religious apologetics - what, how and why. The what is done: No, prayer does not work - they know it doesn't because when put to the test they immediately start on excuses as to why it won'tr work; they know it won't happen.

How, is also known - fabrication and falsification of evidence. Spontaneous remission of cancer (which sounds like an excuse itself but I suppose it happens to non - Christians, thus sorta undermining claims of answered prayer) was always a good one and the less said about Faith - healing the better. Except that it leads into the Why.

Why do people let themselves be fooled and exploited by this stuff? Why do they prefer comfortable lies to hard truths? One one gets accustomed to hard truths, it isn't so bad and I'd say preferable to sticking the fingers in the ears and shouting denial at the heaping up evidence that the election wasn't stolen, the Bible isn't true and prayer doesn't work. I'm done quoting the guarantees in the Bible that praying in Faith will get you what you want. They know that won't happen so it's all 'That is metaphorical..' Arq atheist Axiom "Metaphorically true means 'not true at all'.

I don't want to do a dissertation on 'Religion as a social enabler' and it's not a science -research subject anyway, so far as I know. Ah gatta dream terday... that critical thinking, biological and evolutionary ethics and morality will be a recognised study and one can actually get a degree in atheist studies. We are still a pariah, secularism is ignored and religion still insists that there are some things where science has no business sticking its' nose into.

That has to change and will change..if we can just get through the terrible situation just now.

Anyway, the Why....I've seen prayer in action. It is the other side of the coin of patriotism. Who knew? We all did. prayer tops up Faith. That's why Religion is so desperate to get education, as well as media and politics under control. But it works on a personal level. Sure it isn't done to ask for anything or not in any real hope of it happening. 'Maybe later..' will do and 'God said no' may work surprisingly well of 'God knows best' cases. It won't occur to them that it is a perfect recipe for passing off random chance as 'Results'. So prayer on a person level. I've watched prayer used as personal self validation. It's a personal security blanket against the stark realisation that one person doesn't really matter.

cue 'atheism offers a role for everyone' but we can't afford the actors.