When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.
On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.
Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?
--
Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #1"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
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Post #91
Maybe so, but it did open the door to the efforts of others to shout me down. In the long run, no harm done, as agendas all around become clearer.
I went down there, thinking of what I might say, but couldn't find a way to join the group. Maybe you could help with that -- I'm stumbling through the brambles seeing glimpses of the dim glow of a fire in the distance.And John...If you want to discuss this any further, please do not PM me anymore.
I can be found Around The Camp Fire…Musing on The Ancient Demon[/color]
_________________
"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
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Re: an exorcist tells his story
Post #92That's a curious assertion, and brings up one of the central goals I had in mind when I started this thread. What qualifies as evidence?? What are the uses and limitations of various forms of evidence?Tcg wrote:Based on the fact that claims aren't evidence.John Human wrote:
You would simply dismiss this man's story of his life work. Based on what??
If claims aren't evidence, then eyewitness testimony wouldn't be allowed in court. It is the task of a jury to evaluate the reliability of eyewitness testimony.
_________________
"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
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Re: an exorcist tells his story
Post #94John Human wrote:That's a curious assertion, and brings up one of the central goals I had in mind when I started this thread. What qualifies as evidence?? What are the uses and limitations of various forms of evidence?Tcg wrote:Based on the fact that claims aren't evidence.John Human wrote:
You would simply dismiss this man's story of his life work. Based on what??
If claims aren't evidence, then eyewitness testimony wouldn't be allowed in court. It is the task of a jury to evaluate the reliability of eyewitness testimony.
There is no need to wonder how the claims of demonic activity would be treated in a court of law. We can simply address the results of such a claim:
- "According to testimony by the Glatzel family, 11-year-old David Glatzel had allegedly played host to the demon that forced Johnson to kill Bono. After witnessing a number of increasingly ominous occurrences involving David, the family, exhausted and terrified, decided to enlist the aid of self-described demonologists Ed and Lorraine Warren (noted for their investigation into the famed Amityville Haunting) in a last-ditch effort to "cure" David. The Glatzel family, along with the Warrens, then proceeded to have David exorcised by a number of Catholic priests. The process continued for several days, concluding when, according to those present, a demon fled the child's body and took up residence within Johnson. Several months later, Johnson killed his landlord during a heated conversation. His defense lawyer argued in court that he was possessed, but the judge ruled that such a defense could never be proven and was therefore infeasible in a court of law. Johnson was subsequently convicted, though he only served five years of a 10- to 20-year sentence."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_ ... ne_Johnson
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Re: an exorcist tells his story
Post #95From a scientific perspective, evidence can be a variety of things. Strong evidence could be characterised by: clarity, relevance and quantity of data, possible replication by others, consistency with results arrived at by alternative methods and consistency with plausible theories.John Human wrote:What qualifies as evidence?? What are the uses and limitations of various forms of evidence?
William Bechtel offered these factors (at the Philosophy of Science Foundation) as being useful for the determination of what may be considered scientific evidence. From the above, it seems reasonable to conclude that ‘claims’ on their own can still be evidence, but don’t necessarily qualify as particularly strong evidence.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #96[Replying to RoseAbraham in post #98]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream
Imagining a demon this way and "meeting" it would only suggest that a demon existing is equivalent to being able to simply imagine the demon. By that definition, virtually anything that could be imagined would exist. I think the OP was asking if demons exist as real entities and not just imaginary ones ... although it wasn't clear exactly what was meant by the word "exist."
Exactly what are "Conscious Dreams"? Is this the same as a "Lucid Dream"?In Conscious Dreams, I often met any demon I could imagine, and I had the opportunity to meet any historical figure, fictional character, or any of your other heroes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream
Imagining a demon this way and "meeting" it would only suggest that a demon existing is equivalent to being able to simply imagine the demon. By that definition, virtually anything that could be imagined would exist. I think the OP was asking if demons exist as real entities and not just imaginary ones ... although it wasn't clear exactly what was meant by the word "exist."
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #97What exactly has you understanding that what you see is a 'demon'? Is it the way an entity looks, or something else?RoseAbraham wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:53 pm In Conscious Dreams, I often met any demon I could imagine, and I had the opportunity to meet any historical figure, fictional character, or any of your other heroes. So, when you lie down to have a Conscious Dream, ask yourself who you would choose to meet if you could still meet. This I learned at astralplane.com.It is not only the experience of meeting heroes that is impressive. Often the characters you meet in your dreams have precisely the information you need to move forward in your life because they will combine that person's knowledge with your subconscious awareness.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #98There are recorded instances of emotions being transmitted like viruses. People call this "mass hysteria" and you'll find it interesting if you look it up.
It's not evidence of demons exactly, but it is something that stands against the "reductionist materialism" the OP mentions, and IMO, is quite right about.
It's not evidence of demons exactly, but it is something that stands against the "reductionist materialism" the OP mentions, and IMO, is quite right about.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #99[Replying to John Human in post #1]
Demons do not exist and it can be proven by (f)MRI of the person who claims demons exist.
I suspect brain patterns typical of schizophrenia. Not all people are telling the truth either. Some people join in purely for the circus!
Demons do not exist and it can be proven by (f)MRI of the person who claims demons exist.
I suspect brain patterns typical of schizophrenia. Not all people are telling the truth either. Some people join in purely for the circus!
I'm cool! - Stronger Religion every day! Also by "mathematical Religion", the eternal forms, God closing the door on corrupt humanity, possibly!
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #100[Replying to Aetixintro in post #101]
Dear @Aetixintro
1. You are right that this COULD remain faith based.
Just like we cannot PROVE what we dream at night.
We can measure the brain wave patterns, but cannot prove the content
2. Scott Peck also argued as you do that Schizophrenic voices were
delusional and caused by chemical or misfiring issues in the brain.
However, after he observed the profound impact that Deliverance prayer
and exorcism based steps of therapy had on two Schizophrenic patients,
he changed his mind about these phenomena, and actually argued that
medical science could be used to quantify the stages of sickness and recovery.
He still held that the SPIRITUAL type experiences, phenomena and visions/voices
remain unproveable by science and depend on people's personal experiences and belief what they saw or heard.
His whole team witnessed the same phenomena, but
each study would yield different experiences and results depending on those people
participating.
3. Overall, we could AGREE that Christian Spiritual Healing helps to REMOVE the
conditions and dangers of mental and criminal illness that causes people to
obsess in destructive, abusive and/or deadly ways.
David Berkowitz, formerly known as the Son of Sam, had a spiritual transformation
experience where he recognized the difference between the occult influences that
triggered the demonic voices, obsession and sickness driving him to target, torture and kill people;
and the positive healing of Christian faith and prayer that saved him from this.
If you are interested in purely SCIENTIFIC based studies,
I highly encourage and support you in pursuing this.
I believe it is both medically and ethically necessary.
www.christianhealingmin.org
www.healingisyours.com
www.ariseandshine.org
We do NOT need to argue or prove whether demons are real.
As long as scientific stats can document cases of patients REPORTING this sickness,
then going through stages of treatment and either:
1. regaining ability to manage their conditions and comply with doctors/authorities
2. partial or full cure and removal of these conditions, as documented by
medical tests including brain scans and other criteria that can be developed
and certified as with other fields of medical treatment of diseases and mental disorders
3. lack of change, failure, or relapse back to existing states of disorders
Then we can at least help the people who can use these methods
to save their own minds and health, as well as prevent threatening harm to other people
due to their sick conditions.
Dear @Aetixintro
1. You are right that this COULD remain faith based.
Just like we cannot PROVE what we dream at night.
We can measure the brain wave patterns, but cannot prove the content
2. Scott Peck also argued as you do that Schizophrenic voices were
delusional and caused by chemical or misfiring issues in the brain.
However, after he observed the profound impact that Deliverance prayer
and exorcism based steps of therapy had on two Schizophrenic patients,
he changed his mind about these phenomena, and actually argued that
medical science could be used to quantify the stages of sickness and recovery.
He still held that the SPIRITUAL type experiences, phenomena and visions/voices
remain unproveable by science and depend on people's personal experiences and belief what they saw or heard.
His whole team witnessed the same phenomena, but
each study would yield different experiences and results depending on those people
participating.
3. Overall, we could AGREE that Christian Spiritual Healing helps to REMOVE the
conditions and dangers of mental and criminal illness that causes people to
obsess in destructive, abusive and/or deadly ways.
David Berkowitz, formerly known as the Son of Sam, had a spiritual transformation
experience where he recognized the difference between the occult influences that
triggered the demonic voices, obsession and sickness driving him to target, torture and kill people;
and the positive healing of Christian faith and prayer that saved him from this.
If you are interested in purely SCIENTIFIC based studies,
I highly encourage and support you in pursuing this.
I believe it is both medically and ethically necessary.
www.christianhealingmin.org
www.healingisyours.com
www.ariseandshine.org
We do NOT need to argue or prove whether demons are real.
As long as scientific stats can document cases of patients REPORTING this sickness,
then going through stages of treatment and either:
1. regaining ability to manage their conditions and comply with doctors/authorities
2. partial or full cure and removal of these conditions, as documented by
medical tests including brain scans and other criteria that can be developed
and certified as with other fields of medical treatment of diseases and mental disorders
3. lack of change, failure, or relapse back to existing states of disorders
Then we can at least help the people who can use these methods
to save their own minds and health, as well as prevent threatening harm to other people
due to their sick conditions.