#1 Jesus on hell

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Wootah
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#1 Jesus on hell

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”


Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

2timothy316
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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #181

Post by 2timothy316 »

So I'm going to take a second and point out two ways to approach reading the Bible. One is the correct way, using exegesis, what one gets from the Bible. The other is the flawed way called eisegesis or prooftexting, which is making an assertion and then searching for text in the Bible to support a chosen dogma. For a detailed explanation of these two approaches please go here. https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html

The scriptures in question is 1 Corinthians 15:39-47.
The question is, what is Paul talking about here:
Is he talking about humans having both physical and spiritual bodies?
Or is he talking about that those going to Heaven will need to expect a change from their physical bodies to a spiritual one?

Two posters have offered their assessments and see if you can pick out which one is using exegesis which one is using eisegesis.

Here is Myth-One's (M1) explanation of 1 Corinthians 15:39-47
viewtopic.php?p=1046536#p1046536
Here I'd like all to notice how all of the text is considered. M1 takes into account who the letter is written to. M1 considers what Paul, who was inspired by God, was trying to tell the Corinthian congregation to expect in the future. M1 explains how Paul was building up their hope in Jesus Christ.

Now lets look at Pinseekers (PS) explanation of 1 Corinthians 15:39-47
viewtopic.php?p=1046535#p1046535
Note how PS right off the bat takes one verse out of context, saying "here is really all we need". Is that all the Corinthian congregation really needed? Was that the point of Paul's letter to the Corinthians? To simply tell the Corinthians congregation that they had two bodies? Next we see PS has quoted other scriptures that are supposed to support the the two body doctrine. But is that what Paul, who is inspired by God, again is trying to explain the two body doctrine in the letter to the Ephesians? The other scripture in Revelation 20:4-6, is that talking about the two body doctrine?

The questions for all of us is, which is the right way to use the Bible? Which approach to reading the Bible was right and then explained the Bible the correct way? Should doctrine dictate the scriptures we pick out of the Bible? Can we all see how old doctrines many cling to still stick around today?

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #182

Post by PinSeeker »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:43 am Note how PS right off the bat takes one verse out of context, saying "here is really all we need". Is that all the Corinthian congregation really needed?
My point was (as anyone should be able to discern) not that "we don't need any certain portion of what God has said to us" but rather that to resolve the immediate point of disagreement -- the ridiculous assertion that the physical and spiritual cannot coexist -- all that was really needed from this particular passage was/is:
  • "So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one."
So the premise of your, um, "exposition" of what I said is entirely off-base, thus rendering it invalid. And that make the rest of it ill-fated in turn, namely that I have "quoted other scriptures that are supposed to support the the two body doctrine..." I think you mean to say 'refute,' right? Because I would never support or quote for the purpose of supporting something that has no support to begin with. :D
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:43 am The questions for all of us (are), which is the right way to use the Bible? Which approach to reading the Bible was right and then explained the Bible the correct way?
Indeed.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #183

Post by 2timothy316 »

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #183]

This whole "as anyone should be able to discern" only applies to those that use eisegesis to read scripture as you do. It falls on deaf ears for those that use exegesis. You are not the instrument of your god or any god to explain the True God's Word. The doctrines you keep pushing will not stand the test of time like the truth. They will fade away as those who keep teaching them fade away.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #184

Post by PinSeeker »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:54 pm This whole "as anyone should be able to discern" only applies to those that use eisegesis to read scripture as you do.
Uh, no, I'm speaking there not of Scripture but of what I said. As I said (and I quote), "My point was (as anyone should be able to discern)..." I was very clear in what I said regarding my easily discernable point, and you are now twisting that into something entirely different, either intentionally or otherwise, which is, unfortunately, par for the course. You are applying an entirely different context to my very clear statement. My goodness.
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:54 pm It falls on deaf ears for those that use exegesis.
Well the deaf ears thing I surely agree with... :)
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:54 pm You are not the instrument of your god or any god to explain the True God's Word.
I appreciate your opinion. :) It bothers me not one iota, despite your obvious spiteful intentions. As a word to the (supposedly) wise, though, Scripturally speaking -- as God told Peter (three times, actually) -- we should not call unclean what God has made clean (Acts 10, 11). Yes, in the immediate context there, it's about food, but it applies to those people He has made clean also. If one is to call something unclean, in so doing, he or she is placing himself or herself in the seat of judgment (and possible condemnation) that only God rightfully occupies.
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:54 pm The doctrines you keep pushing will not stand the test of time like the truth. They will fade away as those who keep teaching them fade away.
Time and truth are most assuredly on the same side.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #185

Post by 2timothy316 »

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #185]

Discerning...LOL
Call it whatever you want but to me it's called it esiegesis.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #186

Post by PinSeeker »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:30 pm Discerning...LOL
Yes, your inability to understand a very simple statement of mine is a bit funny (in a couple of different ways)... :)
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:30 pm Call it whatever you want but to me it's called it esiegesis.
Well, you sound smart, anyway... :D

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #187

Post by 2timothy316 »

PinSeeker wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:46 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:30 pm Discerning...LOL
Yes, your inability to understand a very simple statement of mine is a bit funny (in a couple of different ways)... :)
Ah you think I don't understand it.... LOL. Oh I do understand what you're are saying I just flat reject it as false teachings because of the way you get your 'discernment'.
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:30 pm Call it whatever you want but to me it's called it esiegesis.
Well, you sound smart, anyway... :D
How I sound to you is irrelevant.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #188

Post by PinSeeker »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:18 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:46 pm Yes, your inability to understand a very simple statement of mine is a bit funny (in a couple of different ways)... :)
Ah you think I don't understand it...
Well, it's obvious that you don't understand what I said, because you said that what I said was something entirely different than what it was. Or, like I said... Anyway, truthfully, since you have waffled back and forth so much between two entirely different things, I'm not even sure what you're referring to anymore (and don't much care).
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:18 pm Oh I do understand what you're are saying...
That's what I thought. So you're admitting that you intentionally turned what I said into something entirely different than what it was. Yeah, that's kind of what I thought, but I wasn't going to accuse you of anything. But at least you own up to it; good for you, although, it's surely not a good thing to have done in and of itself. Dishonest, I think the kids call it these days... :)
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:18 pm I just flat reject it as false teachings because of the way you get your 'discernment'.
Okay, cool. And I yours, for the same reasons.
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:30 pm How I sound to you is irrelevant.
You're right, I agree. It's what you do/say that matters, and what you have said these past few posts is... well, I'll just say odd, even if not unexpected.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #189

Post by 2timothy316 »

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #189]
You are of course allowed to tell yourself whatever you need to feel better. Let the person who reads this thread make the own judgement on your claims.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #190

Post by PinSeeker »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:27 pm You are of course allowed to tell yourself whatever you need to feel better.
LOL!!!
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:27 pm Let the person who reads this thread make the own judgement on your claims.
Fair enough, but aren't you violating your own admonishment here? :D

Grace and peace to you.

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