Christian Salvation?

[POI]

According to the Bible, what minimum qualifications are required for Christian Heavenly salvation?

- Does a stillborn baby receive a free pass?
- Do all deceased children receive a free pass, prior to the age of enlightenment?
- Is it mandatory to believe, worship, and also attempt to follow Hm; while still knowing you will fall short of perfection in your attempts?
- Is some sort of baptism a requirement for salvation?
- Can you lack conviction that God even exists, but still be selected by your judged upon works?
- Must you keep specific Commandments all the time?
- Does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit guarantee damnation, regardless of later repentance of this prior deemed offense (i.e.) the born again Christians might be screwed?
- Are earnest deathbed conversions, by way of belief and repent to the Christian God, enough?
- Must you love God more than you love anyone on earth?
- Can you be a devout believer/follower, but choose not to give away the majority of your wealth to ones more in need than you?
- Can you be saved if you practice monogamous homosexuality until death?

[PinSeeker]

So your gist is as follows... One is required to be a believer/follower. God decides who will be a believer/follower.

Well, not exactly. Yes and no.

Again, why not call upon all to believe and follow?

He does; this is the general call through all of Scripture. But only God's inward call, issued only to His elect by His Spirit, is, without fail, effectual.[/quote]

Do you have to repent of your very last sin, just prior to your exit/death? Meaning, can you have any un-repented sin on you, and then die?

No, because if you truly repent of your sins, then you are living a life of repentance, not just saying the words, which at some point you may no longer be able to do. And living this life of repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit -- the third Person of the triune God -- in us.

If all works are tainted, then works are effectively arbitrary. All that matters, at a minimum, is believe/repent/worship.

Not so. Good works, those honored by God. are a result of a changed heart and done in saving faith which God effects by the work of His Spirit ~ despite the still-existing human inclination to sin. So is repentance, belief, and worship, actually.

Based upon your answer(s) above, it sounds like a Christian does not necessarily need to comport with this law --- at all.

The Civil and Ceremonial laws are no longer in effect, but only the Moral. And the Law, as Jesus said, is summed up in two commandments, Love God, and love your neighbor. Which sounds very simple, but it's not... Now, the law is Christ. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes (Romans 10:4)

Sounds to me like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and trying to shoot holes in... stuff. Which I have no interest in, and really has no place in this forum.

Grace and peace to you, POI.

[1213]

...
1). No one is righteous, because no one is without sin; regardless of if you are a devout believer or other. Case/point:

Please show the exact scripture, where it is in the Bible? I think you have made misinterpretation of it.

... Unless you care to define what righteous actually means?
...

Bible defines it for example by these:

...He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

A righteous man hates lies, But a wicked man brings shame and disgrace… … The light of the righteous shines brightly, But the lamp of the wicked is snuffed out.
Pro. 13:5,9

A righteous man walks in integrity. Blessed are his children after him.
Pro. 20:7

There are those who covet greedily all the day long; But the righteous give and don't withhold.
Pro. 21:26

The righteous care about justice for the poor. The wicked aren't concerned about knowledge.
Pro. 29:7

[PinSeeker]

Please show the exact scripture, where it is in the Bible? I think you have made misinterpretation of it.

That's what I'm saying, 1213. It appears he has no interest in doing that.

Grace and peace to you!

[William]

According to the Bible, what minimum qualifications are required for Christian Heavenly salvation?
- Does a stillborn baby receive a free pass?

Bible:
“But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” 2 Samuel 12:23

- Do all deceased children receive a free pass, prior to the age of enlightenment?

Biblical Jesus
“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.” Matthew 12:36

Apparently it is oft referred to as "The age of accountability" by many a Christian.
I get the impression that biblical Jesus gives the impression that kids are cool.

- Is it mandatory to believe, worship, and also attempt to follow Hm; while still knowing you will fall short of perfection in your attempts?

Apparently it is recorded in the Bible that Jesus used the expression "Follow Me" 13 times.
There are also instances of people 'worshiping' biblical Jesus and this started when he was but a baby.

Bible:
“And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.” Matthew 2:11
and of course there are plenty of biblical incidences of folk apparently believing in him .

- Is some sort of baptism a requirement for salvation?

Biblical Jesus: [words on baptism]
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28: 19...

Biblical Jesus: [words apparently about salvation]
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” John 5:24

and in answering his followers question;

"Who then can be saved?"
Biblical Jesus:
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Matthew 19: 25-26

- Can you lack conviction that God even exists, but still be selected by your judged upon works?

Given the Bible is a set of story-books about a particular group of Gods in relation to Human beings, and was obviously written by authors who believed in the existence of these Gods, I don't think one will find any biblical reference to not having conviction of that.

- Must you keep specific Commandments all the time?

Biblical Jesus:

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” John 15:10

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22: 37...

- Does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit guarantee damnation, regardless of later repentance of this prior deemed offense (i.e.) the born again Christians might be screwed?

Biblical Jesus:
“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.” Matthew 12:31

- Are earnest deathbed conversions, by way of belief and repent to the Christian God, enough?

And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Biblical Jesus:
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:39...

- Must you love God more than you love anyone on earth?

Biblical Jesus:
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

- Can you be a devout believer/follower, but choose not to give away the majority of your wealth to ones more in need than you?


- Can you be saved if you practice monogamous homosexuality until death?

Google is your friend.

[PinSeeker]

Google is your friend.

Friends can be intentionally or unintentionally deceiving. And even when not, information from friends can be spun in such a way that renders meanings totally different than the message conveyed.

Grace and peace to you, William.

[POI]

He does; this is the general call through all of Scripture. But only God's inward call, issued only to His elect by His Spirit, is, without fail, effectual.

Sounds like your argument is Romans 1? (i.e.) Humans know God exists.

- Some choose to follow
- Some choose to rebel
- Some are confused by evil

Do you have to repent of your very last sin, just prior to your exit/death? Meaning, can you have any un-repented sin on you, and then die?

No, because if you truly repent of your sins, then you are living a life of repentance, not just saying the words, which at some point you may no longer be able to do. And living this life of repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit -- the third Person of the triune God -- in us.

I'm not following.... Are you saying that if you are a true-blue believer/follower/worshiper, you no longer need to actively repent, because you are already 'living a life of repentance'?

If all works are tainted, then works are effectively arbitrary. All that matters, at a minimum, is belief/repent/worship

.
Not so. Good works, those honored by God. are a result of a changed heart and done in saving faith which God effects by the work of His Spirit ~ despite the still-existing human inclination to sin. So is repentance, belief, and worship, actually.

This response looks to make your position contradictory.

Is belief/repent/worship enough? Or, are "Good works, those honored by God" also necessary? If works, (above and beyond belief/repent/worship) are necessary, which ones and how many? If not, then works are not necessary for salvation; so why cite them at all?

Sounds to me like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and trying to shoot holes in... stuff. Which I have no interest in, and really has no place in this forum.

Grace and peace to you, POI.

Please understand my position. Regardless of whether or not I believe this God exists, I can still explore the claims, to see WHAT it claims. My goal here is to get to the bottom of what it takes to be saved. Thus far, I see no clear path, when reading the Bible.

You, yourself, do not appear to yet provide a clear one either. My question again is, what are the minimum requirements for salvation, is it?

Grace alone - All are saved
Grace through faith - Believe/repent/worship
Grace through faith/works - How much faith and how many works?
other???????????

[POI]

... Unless you care to define what righteous actually means?
...

Bible defines it for example by these:

...He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

A righteous man hates lies, But a wicked man brings shame and disgrace… … The light of the righteous shines brightly, But the lamp of the wicked is snuffed out.
Pro. 13:5,9

A righteous man walks in integrity. Blessed are his children after him.
Pro. 20:7

There are those who covet greedily all the day long; But the righteous give and don't withhold.
Pro. 21:26

The righteous care about justice for the poor. The wicked aren't concerned about knowledge.
Pro. 29:7

Regardless of what the Bible defines as "righteous", I will still contend that no one is 'righteous'. Why?

Is lying always considered a sin to God? The answer looks to be yes. God gives no caveats for a 'righteous' lie. Lying is a sin to God, period.

Alternatively, is lying always considered wrong for you? Meaning, can you not think of one instance, where you would consider a lie to be for the greater "good"? I would argue that your answer is yes.

Hence, you are at odds with God's opinion. Why? "Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin." Well, you not only commit sin, but do not always think lying is a sin, if it is to promote a greater 'good'.

[1213]

...
Is lying always considered a sin to God? The answer looks to be yes. God gives no caveats for a 'righteous' lie. Lying is a sin to God, period.

I have understood sin is only to reject God, or to be separated from God. When person lies, it can become a sin, if person also rejects God at the same time.

Alternatively, is lying always considered wrong for you? Meaning, can you not think of one instance, where you would consider a lie to be for the greater "good"? I would argue that your answer is yes.

I think think lying is always wrong. But, many things can forgiven.

[PinSeeker]

Sounds like your argument is Romans 1? (i.e.) Humans know God exists.

- Some choose to follow
- Some choose to rebel
- Some are confused by evil

Part of it, sure.

Do you have to repent of your very last sin, just prior to your exit/death? Meaning, can you have any un-repented sin on you, and then die?

No, because if you truly repent of your sins, then you are living a life of repentance, not just saying the words, which at some point you may no longer be able to do. And living this life of repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit -- the third Person of the triune God -- in us.

I'm not following.... Are you saying that if you are a true-blue believer/follower/worshiper, you no longer need to actively repent, because you are already 'living a life of repentance'?

No. Repentance is ongoing and constant in this life... or should be, anyway. This is what living a life of repentance is.

If all works are tainted, then works are effectively arbitrary. All that matters, at a minimum, is belief/repent/worship

.
Not so. Good works, those honored by God. are a result of a changed heart and done in saving faith which God effects by the work of His Spirit ~ despite the still-existing human inclination to sin. So is repentance, belief, and worship, actually.

This response looks to make your position contradictory.

Nope. I guess I understand your statement that it may seem contradictory to some, but no.

Is belief/repent/worship enough? Or, are "Good works, those honored by God" also necessary?

Yes. Again, the good works are the result of belief/repentance, which is the result of a changed (by God via His Spirit) heart. Faith itself is the gift of God in the new birth (Ephesians 2:8-10):

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Please understand my position. Regardless of whether or not I believe this God exists, I can still explore the claims, to see WHAT it claims. My goal here is to get to the bottom of what it takes to be saved. Thus far, I see no clear path, when reading the Bible.

I think I do understand your position, but I think, though you don't mean to do it, you're complicating it unnecessarily. All you need to know that is what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3 and what Paul tells the Philippian jailer, as documented by Luke in Acts 16. Respectively:

• "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

• “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved..."

Now, all will be judged according their works, which, again, are the result of being saved.

Grace through faith/works - How much faith and how many works?

To this, I would just say, as many (works) as God ordains. Which of course we don't know. But again, per Ephesians 2, we are saved through faith, created for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them; this is His gift. We know that the quantity of faith is irrelevant, as it only needs to be the size of a mustard seed (Matthew 17:20, Luke 17:6) ~ which means that having faith is all that matters, even if it is infinitesimal. But faith itself is a work of God, not of man, else grace is not really grace (Romans 11:6).

Grace and peace to you, POI.

[POI]

...
Is lying always considered a sin to God? The answer looks to be yes. God gives no caveats for a 'righteous' lie. Lying is a sin to God, period.

I have understood sin is only to reject God, or to be separated from God. When person lies, it can become a sin, if person also rejects God at the same time.

Sin - "an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law".

Divine law - "Divine law comprises any body of law that is perceived as deriving from a transcendent source"

Ex. 20-16 appears to be a divine law.

Hence, your assessment is objectively false.

A Christian lie and a Hindu lie, are all still lies. All lies are transgressions against God.

The best you can argue, is that you could commit a lesser sin against God to prevent a greater sin against God. However, the lesser sin is still a direct transgression against Him.

Your notion, that true sin ONLY related unbelievers, would suggest that Catholics, just for starters, are objectively wrong. However, it is you, whom are objectively wrong, before we even explore the likes of Catholicism alone.

Alternatively, is lying always considered wrong for you? Meaning, can you not think of one instance, where you would consider a lie to be for the greater "good"? I would argue that your answer is yes.

I think think lying is always wrong. But, many things can forgiven.

Is lying auto-forgiven, because you are a believer? If so, do you still need to repent of sin?

Or, do you still need to actively repent of your acknowledged sin, for which you still commit?