Free will vs Gods omnipotence

[soadnot]

if god knows all, he knows what im about to do next.
if he knows what im about to do next, there is no free will.
if i choose my own path, god is not omnipotent because he does not know which path i choose.
if he does know my path i dont have free will.

its illogical to have free will and an all knowing god.[/code]

[Goat]

I think that you have hit on a very important issue.

This is particularly true if the one that has the perfect foreknowledge also is the creator/designer.

If you create something AND you have perfect knowledge of how the thing you create will behave then it cannot be said that it has free will, can it?

No, IMO, it can not. I can see how it is debateable otherwise, but I also think perfect foreknowledge eliminates free will.

In my opinion, it is as yoda says 'Ever in motion the future is'. THat is why in the Jewish faith you will see 'If you don't do this, something bad will happen'. It is a warning that can be changed with the proper actions.

[4gold]

if god knows all, he knows what im about to do next.
if he knows what im about to do next, there is no free will.
if i choose my own path, god is not omnipotent because he does not know which path i choose.
if he does know my path i dont have free will.

its illogical to have free will and an all knowing god.[/code]

I think you've created a false dichotomy here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying that free will is the same as indeterminism (your 2nd point). Thus, you seem to be arguing, our only choices are absolute free will or determinism.

David Hume argued that free will cannot exist without causal determinimsm, or compatibilism. Hume's major contribution to the argument of free will is that even though our actions are caused by our will, our motives, and our desires, this does not mean we are acting of our own free will, because we are our will, our motives, and our desires.

[weird7]

If you create something AND you have perfect knowledge of how the thing you create will behave then it cannot be said that it has free will, can it?

Are you saying this refutes the following argument that you mention in post #8?

It could be argued that so long as He did not do anything to influence your choice and that your choice was made freely, you had free will. Does it really matter that he foreknew what your free choice would have been?

If so, how? It still seems to me that this argument could still be applied.

[997GT3]

My problem with free will is that in order for there to be genuine free will there must be a non-random, non-deterministic causal agent for each entity that has free will. The human brain is composed entirely of matter which is either deterministic (cells, bio-chemicals and the like) or random (on a quantum scale). There seems to be no evidential basis for this causal agent, other than the unsupported assertion that we have free will.

The illusion of free will can be compared with a very good computer algorithm for generating random numbers. The numbers are not genuinely random, they are more properly called pseudo-random numbers. They are for all practical purposes random because the algorithm is sufficiently advanced that the numbers generated cannot be distinguished from truly random numbers, let's say generated by some set of quantum events.

Our apparent free will, could only be an illusion. The processes and inputs into the decision process - environmental, experiential, genetic, neurological, biochemical, situational and perhaps even random, are far to complex to in any practical way be used to determine the outcome of any particular decision. But any particular decision we make in our brain is nonetheless completely deterministic.

How does this all relate to God and God's omniscience? If there is an omniscient God, then that God could determine the outcome of any particular decision, and we still do not have genuine free will. The argument made my many theists is that God gave us free will. Perhaps that is what is meant by "in His image". By supposing the existence of a non-deterministic non-random causal agent, God, they can then extend the one of the attributes of that God to humans, our spirit, a non-determined non-random causal agent capable of making decisions independent of materialist influences. However, it can be countered, that by giving humans genuine free will, God must give up to a certain degree omniscience. If all decisions made by our spirits can be determined ahead of time by God, then our spirits are not non-determined causal agents and we have no genuine free will. If any of our spirits' are genuinely non-determined, then even God, by definition, cannot know them in advance.

i see you found my posts from last year

[weird7]

However, it can be countered, that by giving humans genuine free will, God must give up to a certain degree omniscience. If all decisions made by our spirits can be determined ahead of time by God, then our spirits are not non-determined causal agents and we have no genuine free will. If any of our spirits' are genuinely non-determined, then even God, by definition, cannot know them in advance.

Could we not say that the decisions made by our spirits are not "determined" ahead of time by God, but just simply "known"?

[Goat]

However, it can be countered, that by giving humans genuine free will, God must give up to a certain degree omniscience. If all decisions made by our spirits can be determined ahead of time by God, then our spirits are not non-determined causal agents and we have no genuine free will. If any of our spirits' are genuinely non-determined, then even God, by definition, cannot know them in advance.

Could we not say that the decisions made by our spirits are not "determined" ahead of time by God, but just simply "known"?

Depending on the precision of the 'knowing', it doesn't matter if it is manipulated by an outside source, if it is known ahead of time, the decision is still predetermined.

[weird7]

I suppose it boils down to the definition of determine. I have always thought of "determining" something, to be calculating the end result.

One definition from dictionary.com:

to conclude or ascertain, as after reasoning, observation, etc.

I am not sure that we can equate "determining" with "knowing".