Does Genesis 1 describe the Universe?

[Tcg]

Some claim that Genesis 1 describes the creation of the universe and yet an examination of the text reveals that the author doesn't have any concept of planets other than the earth. Beyond that, the author doesn't even understand that the earth is a planet. This is an example of Ancient Hebrew concept of cosmology:




Why do some claim that Genesis 1 describes the universe when the author shows no knowledge of our solar system much less the universe?


Tcg

[Noose001]

Can you point to where this biblical definition is? I agree that "the deep" connotes more than just H2O.

1. These expound on creation:

The earth is the Lords, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters.
Psalms 24:1-2 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/psa.24.1-2.NIV

And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, You are My people. "
Isaiah 51:16 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/isa.51.16.NKJV

2. The descriptions/defination:

Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water, But a man of understanding will draw it out.
Proverbs 20:5 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/pro.20.5.NKJV

The words of a mans mouth are deep waters; The wellspring of wisdom is a flowing brook.
Proverbs 18:4 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/pro.18.4.NKJV

But to be clear, are you positing some kind of Matrix / Cartesian-like "it's all in our heads" kind of universe?

Perhaps.

If so, it still makes my point that there is an uncreated element that pre-exists Gen 1:1 (i.e., our minds) that God creates with / that creates with God. You just have the added challenge of explaining how the human mind exists before humankind is explicitly created in Gen 1:26...

1. Before the fall, man is actually God. Don't you remember the statement " ... prevent man from eating.... truth so that he becomes one of us..."?

2. The heart/ mind of a man is eternal

I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied. He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.
Ecclesiastes 3:10-11 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/ecc.3.10-11.NKJV

3. What's happening in Gen 1 is retrospective of what man 'sees'. Gen 2 or the garden of Eden is actually the heart of a man.

Another biblical evidence is found in Paul's teachings when he says that the universe is 'saved' from decay when the children of God are saved.

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
Romans 8:18-22 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/rom.8.18-22.NIV

[TRANSPONDER]

I think it's become pretty clear that the answer to the question is 'No' because all we have seen is trying to wangle the Biblical universe to sound like the one we have or to make it metaphorical perhaps.

[theophile]

I think it's become pretty clear that the answer to the question is 'No' because all we have seen is trying to wangle the Biblical universe to sound like the one we have or to make it metaphorical perhaps.

"Wrangle the bible"? Not saying you're calling me out with that, but if so, I've personally done nothing but point out what Gen 1 says. The opposite camp keeps insisting on popular notions of God that aren't stated anywhere in Gen 1 (like God's omniscience for instance). Or on Gen 1's origin in human imagination (as if that proves anything).

So in regards to what I've been saying all along, against which no argument from Gen 1 has yet to be provided, Gen 1 shows an uncreated 'sea' outside the bounds of creation (e.g., outside the vault of the sky / heavens even).

We should think of that literal sea as we would the sea itself, and as the ancient writers likely would have: i.e., not as simple H2O but as a largely unknown and quite treacherous domain containing God knows what.

So 1) Is that a stretch? If so, tell me how it stretches Gen 1 using explicit Gen 1 references.

And 2) Does that not comport to reality? i.e., do we not find ourselves in the middle of a vast, cosmic ocean containing God knows what?

Seems pretty true to me.

To the OP, I've agreed all along that it isn't a scientific view of the universe. But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

Perhaps we should treat it as a subjectively versus objectively true view of the universe, which is to say one limited by the bounds of knowledge.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Nice try. I don't assert that "God does not exist." Perfect example of a Straw Man though.

Straw man, eh? Ok, simple question..

Does God exist? Yes or no?

Oh, I get it..."I don't know". Play it safe, right?

Wrong. There is no playing it safe with God. You either believe, or you dont.

There is no atheist/agnostic distinction. No word games, no semantics.

ETA: Oh, and one that is perfectly unrelated to the O.P. and the subject at hand.


Tcg

One conversation leads to another.

[Hawkins]

[Replying to Tcg in post #1]

You need to go back to like 6000 years ago, tell an ancient human that earth is round. Then come back today to see how that piece of info is conveyed. For your reference, a flood occurred 6000 years ago may become a myth in today's world. Humans are lame in conveying a simple truth, such as a flood becoming a myth after 6000 years of conveying through human generations. If so to something they don't understand, such as a round earth, then what do you expect the piece of info to be conveyed?

God made everything in story form for humans to convey in their maximum capability, and at least with a minimal understanding.

[Tcg]

No. I said "perhaps" it was addressed elsewhere. I didn't agree that it was. You've provided zero reasons to conclude that it was and no evidence here to support your claims.


Tcg

Well, "perhaps" if it means that much to you, you will conduct a search on this forum to confirm or falsify the proposition of

"been there, done that".

All that matters here is the evidence, or absence of, that is presented here. If an elementary school student leaves a math equation unsolved I doubt their teacher will give them credit when they claim, "I answered it correctly on my homework last month."


Tcg

[Tcg]

Nice try. I don't assert that "God does not exist." Perfect example of a Straw Man though.

Straw man, eh? Ok, simple question..

Does God exist? Yes or no?

Oh, I get it..."I don't know". Play it safe, right?

Ah yes, yet another Straw Man.

Wrong. There is no playing it safe with God. You either believe, or you dont.

There is no atheist/agnostic distinction. No word games, no semantics.

This amounts to nothing more than the arguing with the Straw Man you created. It has no relevance to me.

ETA: Oh, and one that is perfectly unrelated to the O.P. and the subject at hand.


Tcg

One conversation leads to another.

In this case it has led to an irrelevant one.


Tcg

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #1]

You need to go back to like 6000 years ago, tell an ancient human that earth is round. Then come back today to see how that piece of info is conveyed. For your reference, a flood occurred 6000 years ago may become a myth in today's world. Humans are lame in conveying a simple truth, such as a flood becoming a myth after 6000 years of conveying through human generations. If so to something they don't understand, such as a round earth, then what do you expect the piece of info to be conveyed?

God made everything in story form for humans to convey in their maximum capability, and at least with a minimal understanding.

Your reply is a bit confusing. At one point you refer to humans telling a story and then God doing so. It's not clear who you think is responsible for the Genesis 1 story. In any case, I'm not sure how this addresses the question: "Does Genesis 1 describe the Universe?"


Tcg

[brunumb]

God made everything in story form for humans to convey in their maximum capability, and at least with a minimal understanding.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the involvement of any God is a necessity. People tend to insert things between the lines based on their own preferences and biases. God seems to be one of those things.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Ah yes, yet another Straw Man.

So much for "yes or no".

This amounts to nothing more than the arguing with the Straw Man you created.

I call it how I see it. I asked you a simple yes/no question and since you refused to answer, I will stick with my original assessment.

It has no relevance to me.

In this case it has led to an irrelevant one.


Tcg