Does Genesis 1 describe the Universe?

[Tcg]

Some claim that Genesis 1 describes the creation of the universe and yet an examination of the text reveals that the author doesn't have any concept of planets other than the earth. Beyond that, the author doesn't even understand that the earth is a planet. This is an example of Ancient Hebrew concept of cosmology:




Why do some claim that Genesis 1 describes the universe when the author shows no knowledge of our solar system much less the universe?


Tcg

[Tcg]

I call it how I see it. I asked you a simple yes/no question and since you refused to answer, I will stick with my original assessment.

You answered it for me and then argued with the answer you assigning to me. That is a Straw Man and an argument with the Straw Man you created. Now you are admitting that you will stick with your Straw Man. All this and not a single bit of evidence to support your accusation. Not a terribly convincing argument.


Tcg

[We_Are_VENOM]

You answered it for me and then argued with the answer you assigning to me. That is a Straw Man and an argument with the Straw Man you created. Now you are admitting that you will stick with your Straw Man.

Answering the question for you shouldn't prevent you from answering the question for yourself.

If a person spends every moment on a religious forum arguing against the existence of God, I am intelligent enough to comprehend what this persons stance on God is.

All this and not a single bit of evidence to support your accusation. Not a terribly convincing argument.

Tcg

.....

[Tcg]

You answered it for me and then argued with the answer you assigning to me. That is a Straw Man and an argument with the Straw Man you created. Now you are admitting that you will stick with your Straw Man.

Answering the question for you shouldn't prevent you from answering the question for yourself.

It reveals the fact that no matter how I explain it, as I have done so previously, Straw Man arguments are the likely response.



This will be my last response to this off-topic line of accusations.


Tcg

[We_Are_VENOM]

You answered it for me and then argued with the answer you assigning to me. That is a Straw Man and an argument with the Straw Man you created. Now you are admitting that you will stick with your Straw Man.

Answering the question for you shouldn't prevent you from answering the question for yourself.

It reveals the fact that no matter how I explain it, as I have done so previously, Straw Man arguments are the likely response.



This will be my last response to this off-topic line of accusations.


Tcg

Question remains unanswered.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #1]

At this point this debate hasn't led to a consensus as to whether or not Genesis 1 describes the universe. Major issues such as the absence of the awareness of planets have not been addressed.

Some have suggested that the details found in Genesis 1 should not be taken literally. This has revealed that those who consider it figurative can't reach a consensus on what different objects in the story represent. The meaning of the water mentioned in the story is a major area of contention. This disagreement represents a major problem if one rejects a literal interpretation. It opens the floodgates for pretty much any interpretation one desires to make while the text provides no help in determining which is correct.


Tcg

[Difflugia]

It opens the floodgates for pretty much any interpretation one desires to make while the text provides no help in determining which is correct.

So to speak.

[theophile]

[Replying to Tcg in post #1]

At this point this debate hasn't led to a consensus as to whether or not Genesis 1 describes the universe. Major issues such as the absence of the awareness of planets have not been addressed.

Some have suggested that the details found in Genesis 1 should not be taken literally. This has revealed that those who consider it figurative can't reach a consensus on what different objects in the story represent. The meaning of the water mentioned in the story is a major area of contention. This disagreement represents a major problem if one rejects a literal interpretation. It opens the floodgates for pretty much any interpretation one desires to make while the text provides no help in determining which is correct.


Tcg

Thanks for this. Some comments.

To the missing planets I agree this is somewhat a gap. It is questionable that God would paint the heavens with the stars but not with other celestial bodies, be they planets or whatever else. But ultimately though even a planet appears like a star in the night sky. And recall that all God's creation contains in the first place is light.

That is pretty darn spot on if you think about it. i.e., that all that we know here on earth of any other cosmic body is light? We may have some particle samples from meteors and whatnot, and earth itself is a composite of space debris, but light is our primary source of knowledge. Gen 1 got that right in a certain respect.

And I appreciate your recognition of the waters as a major area of contention. This is not belief speaking but biblical fact. And fair enough there should be some agreed upon version there to conduct a debate. All I'm saying is that looking at the text objectively shows that the waters were never created in Gen 1. As the initial diagram posted shows, and I agree, there is a great deep outside the bounds of the heavens and the earth. Something that God did not create.

And I would further posit, to the OP, that this too has strong agreement with reality, i.e., that there is a great deep out there beyond all that we know. But I fully concede that there is nothing about 'the deep' in Gen 1 that is scientific. It is simply an image of the cosmic ocean that we all find ourselves in. It is not an accurate depiction of our reality. More a subjective truth than objective. Something we all find ourselves in, made in the image of God, as we participate in all this mess.

[brunumb]

And I would further posit, to the OP, that this too has strong agreement with reality, i.e., that there is a great deep out there beyond all that we know. But I fully concede that there is nothing about 'the deep' in Gen 1 that is scientific. It is simply an image of the cosmic ocean that we all find ourselves in. It is not an accurate depiction of our reality. More a subjective truth than objective.

An awful lot of massaging of facts together with creative interpretation is required in order to make Genesis conform with our knowledge of the universe. In the greater scheme of things Earth is an insignificant planet in the outer suburbs of the Milky Way galaxy. The Sun is an ordinary star, one of around 200 billion in the galaxy, which itself is one of around 200 billion galaxies in the known universe. Genesis paints a picture of a specially created planet at the centre of everything with all those stars and galaxies as nothing more than lights in the sky for signs and wonders. Of all the people who have ever lived, or will live before the upcoming end of days, the vast majority of them will have known nothing of the true nature of the universe. So, what was the point of all those cosmic creations in a universe that is inexplicably expanding at an ever increasing rate? None of it makes any sense with God in the mix. The little geocentric model created by early imaginations bears no relation to reality. It reflects the idea that humans are very special and that all the unknowns that they encountered could be explained in terms of a magical being even greater than them.

[theophile]

And I would further posit, to the OP, that this too has strong agreement with reality, i.e., that there is a great deep out there beyond all that we know. But I fully concede that there is nothing about 'the deep' in Gen 1 that is scientific. It is simply an image of the cosmic ocean that we all find ourselves in. It is not an accurate depiction of our reality. More a subjective truth than objective.

An awful lot of massaging of facts together with creative interpretation is required in order to make Genesis conform with our knowledge of the universe. In the greater scheme of things Earth is an insignificant planet in the outer suburbs of the Milky Way galaxy. The Sun is an ordinary star, one of around 200 billion in the galaxy, which itself is one of around 200 billion galaxies in the known universe. Genesis paints a picture of a specially created planet at the centre of everything with all those stars and galaxies as nothing more than lights in the sky for signs and wonders. Of all the people who have ever lived, or will live before the upcoming end of days, the vast majority of them will have known nothing of the true nature of the universe. So, what was the point of all those cosmic creations in a universe that is inexplicably expanding at an ever increasing rate? None of it makes any sense with God in the mix. The little geocentric model created by early imaginations bears no relation to reality. It reflects the idea that humans are very special and that all the unknowns that they encountered could be explained in terms of a magical being even greater than them.

Please tell me, what facts did I "massage"? Be explicit. You didn't argue anything I said directly.

And of course the earth is insignificant. Who said otherwise? If geocentricity is your problem then okay... I already acknowledged weakness in Gen 1 from a scientific perspective for similar reasons. i.e., Gen 1 does not mention other planets. Nor is it explicit on what the center of the universe is for that matter, i.e., whether the earth is in fact the center, so not sure why you're holding that against it. I think Gen 1 portrays a universe with multiple points of light. They could be other worlds, equally as important. Why not?

And what is wrong with the idea of humans being special? Look at the earth. We control its destiny and are quite arguably messing it up. Seriously destroying things for ourselves and God knows for future generations. So of course we are special. It's not to pump our own tires but to acknowledge our responsibility over this planet and the life that it holds.

[brunumb]

Please tell me, what facts did I "massage"? Be explicit. You didn't argue anything I said directly.

The bit in blue summarises it:

And I would further posit, to the OP, that this too has strong agreement with reality, i.e., that there is a great deep out there beyond all that we know.

Genesis is as far from reality as you can get without a lot of 'massaging'. The rest was just a bit of an illustration.