Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[JehovahsWitness]

You look to be avoiding the obvious elephant in the room. It's (you) that view such dinosaur interaction as evil.

No I do not.



JW

Here we go again on the hamster wheel.

Nah, not really. I have just told you that is not my view. You have the choice to

a) not respond,
b) concede that you did not accurately express my opinion (my view) or ....
c) call me a liar (presumably because having cemployed mind reading powers, you know better what *I* think than I do)


No wheel required,
JW

[POI]

You look to be avoiding the obvious elephant in the room. It's (you) that view such dinosaur interaction as evil.

No I do not.



JW

Here we go again on the hamster wheel.

Nah, not really. I have just told you that is not my view. You have the choice to

a) not respond,
b) concede that you did not accurately express my opinion (my view) or ....
c) call me a liar (presumably because having cemployed mind reading powers, you know better what *I* think than I do)


No wheel required,
JW

I choose option d). Which is:

d) How do you resolve the given contradiction, as presented in post #88?

BTW, no 'mind reading' required. I'm merely regurgitating the presented assertions and statements from the official JW site. If you are in disagreement with them, then please stop issuing attachments from their site on a regular basis

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace again to you.

[Replying to POI in post #43]

The world was different before the fall, before the world and all in it was made subject to Death.

Are you saying:

1. All 'creatures' lived until (the fall)? or....
2. They all eventually died, but only peacefully in their sleep of old age?

Option 1. would mean some 'creatures' lived for possibly millions of years, before they perished, because death was nonexistent until Adam? The world must have been completely over-ran by insects alone...
Option 2. is just as absurd to assume, as some mammals don't sleep.

I'm presenting a true dichotomy to you... Did all creatures live up to the point of Adam and Eve's existence, (and subsequent fall), or not?

Not sure how that would have looked (or how long before sin and death entered the world affecting the evolution of creatures that now had to compete for survival, with limited resources).

Well, if you accept that the earth is old, and you also mention evolution, this would suggest 'creatures' were around for millions of years, or more, before 'Adam' would have ever entered the scene.

Maybe, or maybe something is off with the timing, or there are things we have yet to discover. Hence, I said I am not sure how that would have looked (or how long before sin and death entered the world affecting the evolution of creatures that now had to compete for survival, with limited resources).

(I do know that shock and swift blood loss can prevent pain, if we're talking about predation.)

As for volcanoes, hurricanes, and the like... these are not bad. These are just part of a living, moving planet/universe. The only reason people deem them 'bad' is if they can currently cause loss of life/suffering. But if we knew how to avoid such things - such as get on an ark that we knew ahead of time to build or any other early warning system - these would not be an issue at all. In fact, we would just be able to appreciate how cool they are, without worrying about loss of life or limb. It would also not be an issue if our flesh was not subject to death (or could be healed, or if we were like the angels... able to move between spiritual and physical).

I agree 'bad' is subjective. But it brings up the topic of (natural evil) vs (moral evil)... I also understand that the word 'evil' can be subjective. However, in this case, we can speak about both natural evil and moral evil all-the-same. I would imagine you agree that all 'creatures' feel 'pain', can experience 'suffering', can experience 'terror', etc? If these 'creatures' had the ability to experience these attributes before Adam, did they ever?

I lean toward 'not'.

Though physical pain is an effective warning sign to keep away from something harmful, so in that sense it is not bad.

I can also imagine you agree that many/most 'creatures' do not possess the intellectual capacity to always plan for (natural evil), and always completely avoid them?

I do not agree that natural events (flood, earthquake, etc,) are evil.

In answer to your question though, I will disagree. Animals (any living breathing thing, in fact) can listen to God and His Son, or not, same as people. And there are yet angels (spirit beings), that animals see/sense (like Balaam's donkey, and no, I do not think the donkey spoke with human words, but animals communicate with us and with one another, sometimes just with body language and a look; then we tend to translate that to our language).

But the animals that got on the ark knew to come TO the ark, to begin with. Just a lucky guess, or were they called/directed?

Also, no animal ever suffered from smoke inhalation (forest fire), got caught/injured in an earth quake, was subject to falling lava (volcano), etc? If none of them died, did they at least enjoy these experiences which happened to them by random chance???? If they felt the pain, suffered, and/or did not enjoy them, wouldn't this be categorized as 'natural evil'?

No, not by me at least, as that would imply that the lava was aware or even trying to burn a living creature. Have you ever watched a lightning storm and thought how cool it is? Is a particular streak of lightning somehow evil if it happens to strike someone?

I also notices you skipped my other questions. Here they are again:

Before (the fall):

What did parasites eat?
What did dinosaurs eat?
What did large wild cats eat?
What did snakes eat?
What did insects eat?
Who created disease?

I skipped them because I already said I am not sure what the world looked like before death entered into it (and I don't even know if there were parasites or disease). Doesn't make sense (to me) that there would be death in the world before death entered into the world.

I can have a discussion about it, but since I do not know, it would just be my personal thoughts on various possibilities.


Peace again to you.

[JehovahsWitness]

... I'm merely regurgitating the presented assertions and statements from the official JW site.

I appreciate you are just regurgitating (that was what I thought you were doing) ...thank you for being so honest.

It's (you) that view such dinosaur interaction as evil.

I assure you I do not view any animal following its instinct as "evil" and I have never read anything in our literature that pronounced (dinasaurs or any carnivore) "evil".




JW

[JehovahsWitness]

According to JW's, earth was once void of 'evil and suffering'. If you reconcile the science, that animals can feel pain and suffer, then you have a big problem.

And what would that "problem" be?

[POI]

Peace to you,

Peace again to you.

[Replying to POI in post #43]

The world was different before the fall, before the world and all in it was made subject to Death.

Are you saying:

1. All 'creatures' lived until (the fall)? or....
2. They all eventually died, but only peacefully in their sleep of old age?

Option 1. would mean some 'creatures' lived for possibly millions of years, before they perished, because death was nonexistent until Adam? The world must have been completely over-ran by insects alone...
Option 2. is just as absurd to assume, as some mammals don't sleep.

I'm presenting a true dichotomy to you... Did all creatures live up to the point of Adam and Eve's existence, (and subsequent fall), or not?

Not sure how that would have looked (or how long before sin and death entered the world affecting the evolution of creatures that now had to compete for survival, with limited resources).

Well, if you accept that the earth is old, and you also mention evolution, this would suggest 'creatures' were around for millions of years, or more, before 'Adam' would have ever entered the scene.

Maybe, or maybe something is off with the timing, or there are things we have yet to discover. Hence, I said I am not sure how that would have looked (or how long before sin and death entered the world affecting the evolution of creatures that now had to compete for survival, with limited resources).

(I do know that shock and swift blood loss can prevent pain, if we're talking about predation.)

Sorry to suggest this, but it seems as though you would need to engage in fallacious reasoning to surmise such a conclusion.

You stated prior that the world was not yet subject to death. This would mean all creatures lived up until the point of "the fall'.

Do you acknowledge science? If so, you must reconcile the age of the earth, the age of fossils, etc.... Many of these fossils are deemed millions of years old. Fossils are of dead things.

I see cognitive dissonance, special pleading, and conformation bias; in favor of your believed upon Book. Sorry.

Is science 'perfect'? Of course not... But might I leave you here with a thought experiment...

5,000 years ago, common consensus was a 'flat earth'. 75 years ago, the earth is a 'perfect sphere'. 30 years ago, the earth is 'pear-shaped'. So we can ask ourselves.... Do we YET know the true shape of the earth? Maybe not, but are we getting closer to the 'truth' of the matter? I would say so?

And in regards to your response on 'predation'... Fossils also suggest injury. So unless you wish to out-do Dr. Craig's argument, in the video, you have a problem.

As for volcanoes, hurricanes, and the like... these are not bad. These are just part of a living, moving planet/universe. The only reason people deem them 'bad' is if they can currently cause loss of life/suffering. But if we knew how to avoid such things - such as get on an ark that we knew ahead of time to build or any other early warning system - these would not be an issue at all. In fact, we would just be able to appreciate how cool they are, without worrying about loss of life or limb. It would also not be an issue if our flesh was not subject to death (or could be healed, or if we were like the angels... able to move between spiritual and physical).

I agree 'bad' is subjective. But it brings up the topic of (natural evil) vs (moral evil)... I also understand that the word 'evil' can be subjective. However, in this case, we can speak about both natural evil and moral evil all-the-same. I would imagine you agree that all 'creatures' feel 'pain', can experience 'suffering', can experience 'terror', etc? If these 'creatures' had the ability to experience these attributes before Adam, did they ever?

I lean toward 'not'.

Though physical pain is an effective warning sign to keep away from something harmful, so in that sense it is not bad.

So your argument is that prior to "the fall", animals did not experience pain and suffering? (Even though we have the fossil record?) Interesting.... So when these animals perished, millions of years ago (based upon fossils), which already contradicts your view of no death prior to the fall, these creatures also were always and completely benign (or) enjoyed their demise? None of them suffered from pain?

I can also imagine you agree that many/most 'creatures' do not possess the intellectual capacity to always plan for (natural evil), and always completely avoid them?

I do not agree that natural events (flood, earthquake, etc,) are evil.

In answer to your question though, I will disagree. Animals (any living breathing thing, in fact) can listen to God and His Son, or not, same as people. And there are yet angels (spirit beings), that animals see/sense (like Balaam's donkey, and no, I do not think the donkey spoke with human words, but animals communicate with us and with one another, sometimes just with body language and a look; then we tend to translate that to our language).

But the animals that got on the ark knew to come TO the ark, to begin with. Just a lucky guess, or were they called/directed?

Well, I'm not going to chase the unfounded assertions that animals hear God. We cannot even prove this with humans

Back on track.... My question was.... Do you agree that many/most 'creatures' do not possess the intellectual capacity to always plan for (natural evil), and always completely avoid them? I would assume you agree that animals do not always know to avoid 'natural disasters', predation, etc... Thus, do these creatures ever experience pain and/or suffer?

Let me move this along... The fact that animals/creatures act to avoid "natural evil', where applicable, suggests they dislike 'natural evil'. Have you watched the entire video?

[POI]

... I'm merely regurgitating the presented assertions and statements from the official JW site.

I appreciate you are just regurgitating (that was what I thought you were doing) ...thank you for being so honest.

Everyone sees what you are doing. You care not to engage the actual assessment in post #88. You can either continue to ignore the presented contradiction, as presented in post #88, or you can continue to employ your given option a)., which is to ignore.

I have demonstrated a contradiction with JW.org, which is also (your) belief structure. Unless you now wish to disagree with JW.org on record here and now?

It's (you) that view such dinosaur interaction as evil.

I assure you I do not view any animal following its instinct as "evil" and I have never read anything in our literature that pronounced (dinasaurs or any carnivore) "evil".

So animals will continue to perform these same activities in 'Paradise'? If yes, then you have a contradiction in direct relation to the JW definition of "Paradise'. If no, then please explain why all creatures will no longer follow their current activities related to predation/other?

[POI]

According to JW's, earth was once void of 'evil and suffering'. If you reconcile the science, that animals can feel pain and suffer, then you have a big problem.

And what would that "problem" be?

Oh, nothing, as long you acknowledge here and now that Biblical contradiction is not a problem for you?

[William]

[Replying to POI in post #87]

Your response is noted. And I, in part, agree with what you have said above. But the focus of this thread is directed to the 'Christian', and their view on 'morality'.

Even so, having read the couple of posts made after your reply to my own, I don't see that my comments are off-topic...

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #87]

Your response is noted. And I, in part, agree with what you have said above. But the focus of this thread is directed to the 'Christian', and their view on 'morality'.

Even so, having read the couple of posts made after your reply to my own, I don't see that my comments are off-topic...

Well, then by all means... Please re-state or focus the specific areas of necessary concern.