Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[William]

[Replying to POI in post #109]

The Bible states that no suffering existed before the fall.

I am not aware of any biblical statement along those lines. I did a quick search "was there suffering before the fall?" which gave me the general belief systems of Christianity and lots on this particular argument but no positive script on the matter.

What is apparent is that there has always been death as part of the natural cycle of life on Earth, so if that is the argument against Abrahamic belief systems, then that is indeed a big problem for those religions who teach such, because everything is based around the idea that death is a punishment for human sin.

But of course, this is off-set by the belief that the death spoken about is a spiritual death - death of the mind/spirit that allows for an individual to be a person - destruction of the soul...no more experience - oblivion...or as some believe - eternal punishment ranging from torturous flames to being cast away into utter darkness - stuff like that.

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #10]

That's the problem of Evil - which is this topic after all. Man is not to blame for natural disasters nor to blame for the ruthless way nature deals with animals, of which 90% of those who ever lived had gone extinct before man ever chipped a flint tool.

So, no, it is not at all man's fault before at least humans began changing the world, but the fact is that animals compete with each other and natural conditions, in a brutal way and it cannot all be blamed on men.

So either God could put this right, but won't, or he would but can't.

How do Christians answer that?

Search "The Problem of Evil"

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy [source]

This 'problem' obviously has been around for a long time, and could be said to have shaped humanities overall journey into the modern state of being.

My observation is that this so-called "problem" is itself a distortion of reality - the way humans see reality - and even if the problem of religion was solved, the problem of evil would still be an issue.

Anyway - I will get to reading the info I linked to see what is has to say...

[We_Are_VENOM]

So true. That's why we non believers keep asking to see this dog that will bite us.

Yeah...and we non believers of evolution keep asking to see reptile-to-bird type of transformations in nature..

Yet all we get are threats about the dog and continual pointing to a book about a dog.

Yet all we get is promissory notes stating that if we wait a couple hundred million years, thus a continual of pointing down a futuristic timeline of when it will occur..and the continual of pointing down the past timeline of when it did occur.

By the way, I'm loving the anagram sitting deliciously inside this little sub thread

[2ndpillar2]

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering?

The question is a fair one for Christians who insist on God's omnipotence (which is most of them). But it isn't fair for Christians who take greater inspiration from the bible, and recognize the limitations of God's power.

Also, hard to see how animal suffering is consistent with, say, Jesus' message of love. Or God's creation of animals in Gen 1 and declaring them 'good.'

If there is animal suffering under our dominion (per Gen 1) then it isn't God's fault or 'allowance' but ours.

That's the problem of Evil - which is this topic after all. Man is not to blame for natural disasters nor to blame for the ruthless way nature deals with animals, of which 90% of those who ever lived had gone extinct before man ever chipped a flint tool.

So, no, it is not at all man's fault before at least humans began changing the world, but the fact is that animals compete with each other and natural conditions, in a brutal way and it cannot all be blamed on men.

So either God could put this right, but won't, or he would but can't.

How do Christians answer that?

In the day of the Lord, when the Lord will recover his people, the second time (Isaiah 11:11) & (Ezekiel 37), the "wolf will live with the lamb...and the lion will eat straw like the ox". At that time, the dragon/devil/Satan/Serpent will be locked into the abyss (Revelation 20:1-3).

Isaiah 11:5 Righteousness will be the belt around His hips, and faithfulness the sash around His waist. 6The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the goat; the calf and young lion and fatling will be together, and a little child will lead them. 7The cow will graze with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

[benchwarmer]

So true. That's why we non believers keep asking to see this dog that will bite us.

Yeah...and we non believers of evolution keep asking to see reptile-to-bird type of transformations in nature..

Oh look, an unrelated rant about evolution. You know very well that if you want to see evidence of evolution you are welcome to head to a university running evolutionary experiments in the lab. Since you would likely never be bothered to put in that kind of effort, you can either trust the consensus of experts in the field and read the many, many, many papers on the subject OR continue Bible based beliefs based on the writings of ancient authors.

Yet all we get are threats about the dog and continual pointing to a book about a dog.

Yet all we get is promissory notes stating that if we wait a couple hundred million years, thus a continual of pointing down a futuristic timeline of when it will occur..and the continual of pointing down the past timeline of when it did occur.

One word: Bacteria

By the way, I'm loving the anagram sitting deliciously inside this little sub thread

dog, god, ....

[We_Are_VENOM]

Oh look, an unrelated rant about evolution. You know very well that if you want to see evidence of evolution you are welcome to head to a university running evolutionary experiments in the lab.

It is related though. There is something about my religion (Christianity) that you want to see, but don't.

And there is something about your religion (evolution) that I'd like to see, but don't.

So hey.

Since you would likely never be bothered to put in that kind of effort, you can either trust the consensus of experts in the field and read the many, many, many papers on the subject OR continue Bible based beliefs based on the writings of ancient authors.

Just as you will likely never be bothered and put in the effort to fix your lips to utter the words JESUS IS LORD and meaning it with all your mind, body, and spirit.

So hey.

One word: Bacteria

One bacteria (cell) is more complicated/complex than a space shuttle...and a space shuttle is probably the most complex machine ever built by man.

Hmmm. But the space shuttle is intelligently designed, however a cell isn't?

Taxi cab fallacy.

dog, god, ....

Yeah thats cute. Just make sure you spell dog with a capital D for me.

Thanks

[William]

"The "Taxi-Cab Fallacy" is committed when one hops in and assumes a certain system of thought or worldview in an attempt to make a particular point but then jumps out of the system of thought when it suits their fancy. Such practice lacks logical consistency and is therefore a logical fallacy. A detractor of the Christian worldview cannot hop into the Christian system of thought by erecting an objection grounded in the Bible and then demand an answer be given without the use of a Bible. Again, they cannot appeal to the Bible in raising their question and then insist we throw our Bible out of the equation when we give an answer!"

Source:

[brunumb]

Just as you will likely never be bothered and put in the effort to fix your lips to utter the words JESUS IS LORD and meaning it with all your mind, body, and spirit.

Ironically many of the people you are debating with did just that, day in, day out for up to decades and eventually came to the realisation that Jesus was nothing more than a long dead preacher man. It seems that the indoctrination can wear off for some with genuinely open minds,

[tam]

Peace to you,

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

Just what does "sin entered the world" actually entail? It's not a thing that can come and go. If it "entered the world" where did it come from? Let's face it, it's really just a meaningless phrase used to shift the blame for all the punishment inflicted on humans away from God. Battered wife syndrome comes to mind here. "I'm only beating you because I love you" or, "If I'm beating you it's because you made me do it".

How could death come to all people because all sinned apply when only Adam and Eve sinned? It's just nonsense.

Sin = error (which would include wrongdoing, but also sin/error in the flesh - which is why the flesh can get sick and can die).

I won't speak for anyone else, but I have certainly committed wrongdoing on numerous occasions.


As for death entering the world, Adam subjecting the world and even his own offspring to Death (the Destroyer), I am just going to link to a post from earlier on. The thread was 'motivations' and the OP was from EJ (Elijah John):

viewtopic.php?p=772614#p772614

The ransom is paid to the one Adam sold his offspring TO. Adam did not sell his offspring to God.

Adam sold his offspring to Death. (The Destroyer, Abaddon/Apollyon, the King of the Abyss; the last enemy to be defeated)

Christ gave His life in exchange; hence he purchased men back for God with HIS blood and HIS life.

God sacrificed His Son for our sake... but not because He demanded a sacrifice to Himself.

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice."


But because that is what was required to purchase us back from the one the first Adam sold us TO.

Life for life.

I shared a little bit on this forum (and more fully elsewhere if you are interested) what I received from my Lord regarding the written law on eye for eye... life for life. That this was not meant to be about vengeance, but rather that it was meant to be about GIVING life... for life. Not taking life. Christ taught the truth of this... not just in word but also in deed.

He even said that love has no one greater than this: that one lay down his life for another.

Same thread:

viewtopic.php?p=772862#p772862

I am not sure if there is one that specifically states that, but there is this:

For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

So death entered the world through a man (Adam). He gave death entrance into this world. He subjected his offspring to death.

He of course did not think that HE would himself be subject to death, because the Adversary (the son of destruction) said to him (and Eve) that they would not die if they ate of that tree.

Unfortunately for them (and their offspring), they could NOT eat from that tree and yet live... like God. They could not know good (life) AND bad (death), and yet live... UNLESS they were to also eat of the tree of Life (Christ), and live forever.

God does not need to eat of the tree of life in order to live forever. The tree of life (Christ) came from God to begin with.


There is also this:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

Adam made that decision also; that brought death to all people. Since we came from Adam (physically speaking), we inherit his flesh after he fell; and the sin (error) in that flesh. Sin and death is in our flesh; or else it would not get sick or die.

(On top of that, we also all sin)



There are probably more details than that, but that is what I understand at this time.

****

And, despite what you quoted as a list of things supposedly showing a loving God, that does not diminish the appalling way he treated Adam and Eve for their disobedience. The penalties that he decided to inflict on them, plus all of humanity that followed, is far from loving. You are defending a barbarian tyrant, not a loving parent.

The things on those list show that God did not treat Adam and Eve (or their offspring) appallingly, not at all. Adam treated the gifts that God gave him, appallingly. Adam treated his wife appallingly (blaming both her and God for what he chose to do). Adam treated the world and the life that had been given to him to care for, to 'husband' (and even his own offspring not yet born) without regard.


God is the One who provided a way home to Him (as well as doing all the other things on that list in my previous post to you, and more.)



Peace again.

[We_Are_VENOM]

"The "Taxi-Cab Fallacy" is committed when one hops in and assumes a certain system of thought or worldview in an attempt to make a particular point but then jumps out of the system of thought when it suits their fancy. Such practice lacks logical consistency and is therefore a logical fallacy. A detractor of the Christian worldview cannot hop into the Christian system of thought by erecting an objection grounded in the Bible and then demand an answer be given without the use of a Bible. Again, they cannot appeal to the Bible in raising their question and then insist we throw our Bible out of the equation when we give an answer!"

Source:

Ummm ok. Anyways, yeah..my point was made, valid, and stands.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Ironically many of the people you are debating with did just that, day in, day out for up to decades and eventually came to the realisation that Jesus was nothing more than a long dead preacher man.

And it is such realization as to why said ex-believer was never a true believer in the first place. The Bible is clear on that.

It seems that the indoctrination can wear off for some with genuinely open minds,

Well, I dont have that much of an open mind to believe in evolution.