Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[tam]

Peace again to you William,

[Replying to tam in post #138]

God did not say, "eat and I will kill you". He said, "eat and you will die". Cause and effect.

This harkens to the act of keeping the pair from having access to the fruit of life. Thus the cause is preventing that access and the effect was that they eventually died.

So while it can be noted that the God did not say "I will kill you" the Gods actions still made it certain that they would die.

Eating from the Tree of knowing good AND BAD (meaning, life AND DEATH) caused them to die (just as God had said). They needed to eat from the Tree of Life in order to live forever, but that could no longer be permitted. Not at that time at least.


Peace again.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #141]

They needed to eat from the Tree of Life in order to live forever, but that could no longer be permitted. Not at that time at least.

Correct. They would not have been able to die unless the God had done this, so it was not SIN which caused them to surely die. It was not knowledge of good and evil which caused them to surely die.

It was not having access to that which would grant them to live forever, which caused them to surely die.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So while it can be noted that the God did not say "I will kill you" the Gods actions still made it certain that they would surely die.

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

As I mentioned, the idea that a God made things so they could be that way equates to something nature is not seen to supply any evidential support for, and we are thus still left with Nature explains it better. There was no curse. It has always been this way and is not evil. Scary? Yep. Dark in places? Naturally enough - because of the mostly dark space it floats and spins within.

The story comes from an ancient more ignorant time period and is based upon the assumption that nature is Evil - or at least - turned evil through one humans actions.

[We_Are_VENOM]

At last. We finally get the playing of the "No True Believer Card".

Remember, I am the Bible believing Christian here...and I just simply go by what the Bible says on the situation.

The Bible says that folks who leave were never believers in the first place.

That isn't something you should fret about, but be proud that you never was really involved in such falsehood in the first place.

Should make you feel even better.

Too funny. Everyone who is a believer is a True Believer until they realise that it was all just religious nonsense and then they were never a True Believer. You really have to be desperate to play that card.

Well, I will let you know when I come to that realization. I aint there yet.

That is patently obvious, but not an admission that warrants any respect.

The respect that I seek comes from a higher power.

[Tcg]

The Bible says that folks who leave were never believers in the first place.

That's fine and dandy if you are presenting this to represent what the Bible teaches on the subject. If, however you are presenting this as fact then you've picked the wrong sub-forum in which to do so. The Bible is not considered authoritative here. You'll need to find another source to support your claim.


Tcg

[We_Are_VENOM]

I don't have a religion, I'm an atheist and non-religious person. If the scientific theory of evolution is ever overturned by newer, better data, methodology, and theories, I'll be on board with no issue. I have no religious ties to any science. I do, however, seem to have to constantly explain how science is not religion for some reason.

Evolution is a religion, in my opinion. We may never agree on that note, but it is what it is.

Well, wrong yet again. Been there, done that, bought the rosary.

True believers don't leave, according to the Bible.

Fortunately, I was open minded enough to overcome my initial indoctrination and be open to truly understanding how Christianity was formed and what it's based on. Upon discovering the utter lack of any real evidence for it beyond the Bible based circular reasoning, I reluctantly let go of my faith. Be clear that I'm still open to "something beyond us", but given no actual evidence for any particular thing, I'll let observable, verifiable evidence point me towards whatever "something" that may be out there. If there is something out there and it made us, it gave us senses, reasoning, and logic and I prefer to employ those from now on. I no longer cling to emotional ploys or give any credence to empty threats from apologists.

The Bible says that man is without excuse for not believing. Now, what the Bible does/doesn't say may not mean anything to you...but that is my standard.

Well, that one flew right over your head apparently. You brought up evolution and claimed that the theory will only show iteself "if we wait a couple hundred million years". Again, I direct you to evolutionary biologists who are observing evolution in the lab with bacteria. No millions of years required. Feel free to keep misrepresenting actual science and ignoring the data provided. It's not helping your case.

The observation in the lab with bacteria is limited to the bacteria. I am speaking of reptile-to-bird transformations as it pertains to animals, because that is exactly what the evolutionist claims to have happened, and that is exactly what they claim takes millions of years to occur.

So, when you start breeding animals and can get me a reptile-to-bird type of macro change, then you will have my attention.

Until then, you've got nothing.

And what I said about the cell/space shuttle thing stands, and isn't going anywhere.

Sometimes I think you just randomly plop down fallacy names and have no clue what they really mean. I don't recall jumping into the creationist taxi and then jumping out of the science one. Feel free to explain it. You might want to look it up first though.

You think so?

Basically what I'm saying is; it is fine for you to ride in the taxi when it goes to the destination of space shuttles and the need for intelligent designers...but when it comes to cellular structures, as they are more complex than space shuttles, you hop off the taxi because you don't like its destination, which is directly towards intelligent design creationism (a higher power).

Yeah, the taxi cab fallacy like I said.

[We_Are_VENOM]

That's fine and dandy if you are presenting this to represent what the Bible teaches on the subject. If, however you are presenting this as fact then you've picked the wrong sub-forum in which to do so. The Bible is not considered authoritative here. You'll need to find another source to support your claim.

Tcg

That is the point, that IS what the Bible teaches on the subject.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Spoken like a true Christian. "God works in mysterious ways." "No one knows the mind of God."

Both are true statements, btw.

And I guess if your believed upon God exists, "might makes right"?

Yeah, that's what I got out of it.

If you don't really care to put any thought into this seemingly important thread, then just say so; or do not respond in the first place.

Or, unbelievers should stop concerning themselves with alleged problems facing religions that they do not believe in.

Most of you folks on here are atheists and are yet concerning yourselves with God's plans, requirements, etc.

If you don't believe God exists and live your life as if he doesn't, then questions concerning what/why God allows certain things are meaningless.

[Tcg]

That's fine and dandy if you are presenting this to represent what the Bible teaches on the subject. If, however you are presenting this as fact then you've picked the wrong sub-forum in which to do so. The Bible is not considered authoritative here. You'll need to find another source to support your claim.

Tcg

That is the point, that IS what the Bible teaches on the subject.

Yes, but as I stated in this sub-forum what the Bible teaches on this, or any other subject is not considered authoritative. The guidelines for this subforum read in part:

If you choose to debate in this sub-forum you are REQUIRED to honor the Guidelines. Notice specifically that the Bible can be used ONLY to show what the bible says and what Christianity says. It cannot be used to prove that a statement or story is true.

If you are attempting to argue that your claim is true, you'll need to find a source other than the Bible to show that.


Tcg

[brunumb]

Sin entered the world through Adam, because Adam is the one who sinned. Sin entered onto the scene. Death entered through that sin.

Repeating the same mantra explains nothing. Sin is not a tangible thing that can simply come and go. By what mechanism did "sin enter the world". Saying that Adam sinned does not answer that question.

Also, saying that death "entered" the world is just a weasel way of trying to avoid the obvious. God deliberately inflicted death on the world. His choice, his decision and his responsibility. If it was imposed as a consequence of the heinous sin of disobedience committed by Adam and Eve, then it should have been applied to them and them alone. The behaviour of God in the entire garden scenario was abysmal and inexcusable.

[We_Are_VENOM]

That's fine and dandy if you are presenting this to represent what the Bible teaches on the subject. If, however you are presenting this as fact then you've picked the wrong sub-forum in which to do so. The Bible is not considered authoritative here. You'll need to find another source to support your claim.

Tcg

That is the point, that IS what the Bible teaches on the subject.

Yes, but as I stated in this sub-forum what the Bible teaches on this, or any other subject is not considered authoritative. The guidelines for this subforum read in part:

If you choose to debate in this sub-forum you are REQUIRED to honor the Guidelines. Notice specifically that the Bible can be used ONLY to show what the bible says and what Christianity says. It cannot be used to prove that a statement or story is true.

If you are attempting to argue that your claim is true, you'll need to find a source other than the Bible to show that.


Tcg

Gotcha, I think