Rosary Beads - Is God influenced by Repetition?

[Tcg]

Some Christians use Rosary Beads to keep track of how many times they beg God to act in their favor. Is God influenced by how many times requests are made?


Tcg

[mgb]

Once brainwashed into Godfaith regular top -ups are necessary to keep people brainwashed.

I would give people more credit than that. Many people have far more sophisticated reasons for their faith. To dismiss faith as brainwashing is not a convincing argument or a realistic explanation for why people believe.

[TRANSPONDER]

Good point. And possibly another discussion. I'll just say that I nevertheless have a view that Christian propaganda (apart from established social indoctrination -top ups) relies on brainwashing people into Faith. And that does indeed use a shedload of sophisticated arguments and very clever they are. Everything from Kalam and ontological arguments to pushing the demonstrable historical element of the Bible to debunking Evilooshun including Deep Time Geology as you may have seen out esteemed pal otseng doing so on 'inerrancy' and nobody could do a better job than he did. And that would be more than enough to make the average bod in the street wonder whether his doubts about a talking donkey and walking snake could really be reason to reject a reliable record of Jesus telling a penitent thief that he'd be paradise just because Matthew and Mark say that both thieves damned Jesus to hell and back.

And if the Suck in squad of the local Christian Community have chosen their time well, just when the Mark is having doubts about his skepticism, have him kneel, repent and beg Jesus to come into his heart. I can't see it working on me, but it looks like it does work otherwise it wouldn't be part of the Evangelical procedural workbook.

Brainwash, fella, pure and simple and all you have to do is keep the top -up going to make sure the fellow or filly doesn't backslide, and especially make sure there is nowhere for them to backslide to. That's why atheists have to be kept short of funds, exposure and back up and everything like atheist experience TV show to the Clergy project as a refuge for deconverted ministers with nowhere to go all has to be funded by unbelievers since we get nothing from Government the oil industry or the political parties. And not even tax exemption.

But I'm not going to rave about the massive weight of suppression of the atheist voice but about the ongoing brainwash and why - though you say there are good reasons - they aren't good enough. They would look fine, with only one side making the case. Just take resurrection - apologetics, especially with people who haven't studied it, even if they've read it. And even if they notice a problem, there will be some apologists ready to argue that if there were two angels there was one and toss out some red herrings by saying that the Bible never actually says there were Three kings.

Yes, the lies and fiddling of history and science can make religious claims look pretty good, especially if the apologists plays the murky waters of quantum card. 'Nothing can be sure, so you can't be sure God doesn't exist', and cross the fingers that the atheist rebuttal will be ignored because Atheists rate below child rapists as people you'd trust, so who the hell is going to listen to us? Yes, the game is to keep science skepticism and distrust of evidence the norm for Western thinking and the job of brainwashing into Faith is half done.

[historia]

I'm not going to rave about the massive weight of suppression of the atheist voice

Without raving about it, perhaps you can tell us what, exactly, the "massive weight of suppression of the atheist voice" is.

[mgb]

I'll just say that I nevertheless have a view that Christian propaganda (apart from established social indoctrination -top ups) relies on brainwashing people into Faith.

Much the same could be said for atheism. Dawkins' ranting and sarcasm, unfounded accusations of 'delusion', multiverses, virtual realities, the gene-of-the-gap theory, scientism in general and the insistence that only what is proved is to be believed when in reality materialists have many dogmatic articles of faith and tend to believe things that are far from proved. An endless stream atheist books that rely heavily on rhetoric and on trying to debunk religion because some of its adherents were wicked when, in fact, State Atheism is responsible for dreadful atrocities. Hypocrisy.

But let's not tit-for-tat, we've both had our say. Yes, the externals of religion have been added to, subtracted from and distorted through history but I still maintain that the externals - bible accounts etc - are not the basis of faith. At the beginning I was clueless about what the bible taught and they did not teach me much of it in school. Many people of faith don't think too much about these things because their faith is more intuitive than learned. Learned religion is really only a signpost that points towards spirituality. Once an individual is aware of God and guided by God religion as a teaching becomes less important. And for many properly religious people faith is more subtle than that. Atheists often seem to think religious people are people who read religious books like you'd read a science book and go by it literally. In truth, religious teachings are only an outer packaging. They are not central to faith. Many sincere Christians in modern times take some of the bible teachings with a pinch of salt. Faith is far more complex than mindlessly reading a book - despite the impression some fanatics give. In short; people don't really think a lot about the historical details. For them faith is more intuitive. Let the scholars iron out the wrinkles.

[1213]

Some Christians use Rosary Beads to keep track of how many times they beg God to act in their favor. Is God influenced by how many times requests are made?

Jesus said:

In praying, don’t use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking. Therefore don’t be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him. Pray like this: ‘Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy….
Matt. 6:7-9

[historia]

And again, it includes the phrase "obtain what they promise." Obviously, those practicing this ritual are expecting God to respond to their begging.

I think you're missing an important nuance here.

This optional, concluding prayer is not expressing an expectation that God will be influenced by the prayer itself, but rather is expressing hope that what God has already promised will be realized in the person's life.

In that vein, the Catholic Encyclopedia (1917) offers this important caveat about prayer:

[A]bove all we are to pray that God may be glorified, and that for this purpose men may be worthy citizens of His kingdom, living in conformity with His will. Indeed, this conformity is implied in every prayer: we should ask for nothing unless it be strictly in accordance with Divine Providence in our regard.

In the Rosary, the repetition of the prayers is to facilitate meditation.

[brunumb]

Once brainwashed into Godfaith regular top -ups are necessary to keep people brainwashed.

I would give people more credit than that. Many people have far more sophisticated reasons for their faith. To dismiss faith as brainwashing is not a convincing argument or a realistic explanation for why people believe.

The trouble is that religious indoctrination begins from birth and is particularly effective during formative years when the mind is most receptive and least critical of the information being received. Later, reasons for faith usually involve post hoc attempts to rationalise already entrenched religious beliefs. I regard the geographical distribution of religions as testament to that process. Nevertheless, I would be interested in hearing what sophisticated reasons people have for their faith where they actually led them to it in the first place.

[mgb]

Once brainwashed into Godfaith regular top -ups are necessary to keep people brainwashed.

I would give people more credit than that. Many people have far more sophisticated reasons for their faith. To dismiss faith as brainwashing is not a convincing argument or a realistic explanation for why people believe.

The trouble is that religious indoctrination begins from birth and is particularly effective during formative years when the mind is most receptive and least critical of the information being received. Later, reasons for faith usually involve post hoc attempts to rationalize already entrenched religious beliefs. I regard the geographical distribution of religions as testament to that process. Nevertheless, I would be interested in hearing what sophisticated reasons people have for their faith where they actually led them to it in the first place.

It is simplistic to dismiss religious belief as simply brain washing. Atheism could come under the same criticism. 'Brainwashing' makes it look like religious people are mindless automata. People who are sincerely religious can be intellectuals and have a very intellectual basis for their faith, or they can be more intuitive and not care too much about scholarly details. As for why people enter the faith proper - it normally concerns a growing sense of God's presence and the reality of God as a person. This is summarily dismissed as 'delusion'.

[nobspeople]

Some Christians use Rosary Beads to keep track of how many times they beg God to act in their favor. Is God influenced by how many times requests are made?


Tcg

Not being catholic or ever really being around many growing up, I've wondered the same thing. I suppose it's their 'belief' like anyone could have? But to me, it doesn't make a whole lotta' sense.

Interesting note: I once had a preacher tell us, back in the day when the book came out (I forget its name) that said it had the exact time/date of the return of christ, that god's plan could change if enough people prayed and begged it to change (which the whole congregation agreed).
For example: "God please delay your son's return until my dad/mom/sister/etc accepts salvation!!
I found that to be rather selfish as it doesn't take into account the other billions upon billions of souls.

[historia]

But to me, it doesn't make a whole lotta' sense.

What about the Rosary doesn't make sense to you?