Making sense of the NT

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hello,

I've been debating (online) against atheism for many years, I'm very well educated in the sciences and to a lesser degree, philosophy.

However - and I know I'm not alone here - Christianity itself, the New Testament, remarkable and thought provoking as it is, and not questioning the legitimacy of the texts we have access to, I am ultimately deeply puzzled by it all.

Christ revealed some deeply profound things, completely dumbfounding prevailing Jewish beliefs and this goes in its favor, as it's sheer radicality is just not something I'd expect to simply emerge from prevailing ideas.

Yet it makes no sense at the end of the day, for example why go to all this trouble? the entire human race is in a state of anguish, confusion and beginning to collapse, why is that logically necessary as part of creation?

What exactly are humans expected to do? it is far from clear (as is evidenced by the many doctrinal arguments over the past twenty centuries).

So that's my position, I'm interested in hearing some candidate answers!

[benchwarmer]

Christ revealed some deeply profound things, completely dumbfounding prevailing Jewish beliefs and this goes in its favor, as it's sheer radicality is just not something I'd expect to simply emerge from prevailing ideas.

Just curious which "deeply profound things" you are thinking of.

One example, the 'golden rule' actually came long before Jesus:

https://arstechnica.com/staff/2005/11/1940/

The ubiquity of the Golden Rule
The many historical faces of this popular ethical maxim.

We've all heard the Golden Rule, or one of its various permutations through oral culture: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (Luke 6:31). This good old fashioned Sunday School staple is most often seen as a saying of Jesus, but would you be interested to know that it's actually one of the most widely attested ethical maxims in human history? Long before Luke (and Matthew) attributed the statement to Jesus, it was spread about in the ancient world as much as 2000 years earlier. Here are some great examples of other instances of the Golden Rule:

circa 2000 BCE "Do for one who may do for you, That you may cause him thus to do." - The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant 109-110, Ancient Egypt.
circa 700 BCE "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the LORD." Hebrew Bible
circa 600 BCE "That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another whatever is not good for its own self." - Dadistan-i-Dinik 94:5, Zoroastrianism.
circa 500 BCE "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." - Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29, Zoroastrianism.
circa 500 BCE "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." - Udana-Varga 5:18, Buddhism.
circa 500 BCE "What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others." Analects of Confucius 15:24, Confucianism.
circa 400 BCE "Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others." - Socrates.
circa 90 CE "Do to others as you would have them do to you." - Gospel of Luke 6:31, Christianity
circa 100 CE "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." - Epictetus.
circa 750 "Do unto all men as you would wish to have done unto you; and reject for others what you would reject for yourself." - Hadith, Islam.

I imagine many other examples will be similar.

[JehovahsWitness]

... the entire human race is in a state of anguish, confusion and beginning to collapse, why is that logically necessary as part of creation?

Biblically suffering was not part of Gods original purpose and Jesus message was that God would destroy the wicked and bring mankind back to the conditions in Eden; in short return mankind to living on this our planet earth in perfect conditions free of hunger, illness emotional pain and suffering.



That was and is "the good news" that Christ came to make known.

What exactly are humans expected to do?

Learn more about the government that will be used to ensure the above and conform to its requirements.



JEHOVAHS WITNESS



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GOD'S KINGDOM, MILLENIAL RULE and ...THE PURPOSE OF LIFE

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #12
Learn more about the government that will be used to ensure the above and conform to its requirements.
]

What will be those requirements and how are they met? Apparently, they will include worshipping the "Lord of hosts" in Jerusalem, and keeping the feast of Booths, and that there will be no Canaanite/merchant in the "house of the Lord of hosts" (Zechariah 14:21) and that the "house of Israel" will return to the land given to Jacob, and "they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them" (Ezekiel 37:24-25), with David My servant as their "prince forever".

[Eloi]

(...) What exactly are humans expected to do? it is far from clear (as is evidenced by the many doctrinal arguments over the past twenty centuries).

So that's my position, I'm interested in hearing some candidate answers!

In general terms, a servant of God has to take care of these two aspects:

1) beliefs
2) principles and values.

When the Bible is studied carefully and with help, both aspects (in all their points) become more and more clear. For example, when we read this:

1 Cor. 6:9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit Gods kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit Gods kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.

... or this:

Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit Gods Kingdom.
22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed to the stake the flesh together with its passions and desires.

... principles and values become clear.

Humans are expected to be civic with each other, and to know and respect the only true God ... who left us a written letter so that we don't go blind through life. If we read it and study it, we'll know what the Creator did, what He is doing, and what He will do, and what we must do to be on His side and receive the promises. He got a people on earth at this very moment; look for it and join:

Apoc. 21:17 And the spirit and the bride keep on saying, "Come!" and let anyone hearing say, "Come!" and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone who wishes take lifes water free.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Yet it makes no sense at the end of the day, for example why go to all this trouble? the entire human race is in a state of anguish, confusion and beginning to collapse, why is that logically necessary as part of creation?

Who said that all this mess is logically necessary? I don't recall any such mention of that in the Gen 1 creation narrative. Debatable if that's what Gen 2-3 conveys.

That said, I do think there are variable elements and a chaotic potential in creation. But that doesn't necessarily mean the anguish and confusion you speak of.

What exactly are humans expected to do? it is far from clear (as is evidenced by the many doctrinal arguments over the past twenty centuries).

Per Gen 1 I'd suggest something along the lines of filling the earth with life and subduing it. Or per Gen 2, to "work and till" the garden. So from both of those references I would think of our role as something akin to a gardener. Creating the conditions for life. Creating a harmony of life. Making sure life of every kind can flourish. That kind of thing.

Why? why are people expected to do that? what is the purpose of doing that? This is what I'm driving at, it makes no sense to me.

What doesn't make sense about a world filled with life? Do you prefer the direction we're going, i.e., a world of empty oceans and barren landscapes? (Would you rather the desolation of Mars to the fecundity of the rain forests and coral reefs of Earth?)

But look, we are all free to choose our core values. Wealth. Power. Knowledge... In the bible that core value is life in all of its myriad expressions.

The world is filled with misery, pain, anguish and suffering, this is what has been created.

Children are abused and tortured the world over, people become sick and suffer misery and pain the world over, this is what I see, this is what has been created, but why?

[Eloi]

The world is filled with misery, pain, anguish and suffering, this is what has been created.

Children are abused and tortured the world over, people become sick and suffer misery and pain the world over, this is what I see, this is what has been created, but why?

No, it is not what has been created ... that was what humans achieved by separating from their Father.

But the Creator had a very different purpose when he created the planet and humans. Despite all the human misery of these times, the great and satisfying things that the Creator gave us are still clearly visible, because his goodness still reaches us.

Jehovah is still going to fix what went wrong, so that his original purpose will be fulfilled. He is now telling everyone what to do to be able to be there; he is educating people who want to change their personality and prepare for that new world that will exist on the planet, like the garden where God placed the first human couple.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin is also practicing lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know, too, that he was made manifest to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. 6 Everyone remaining in union with him does not practice sin; no one who practices sin has either seen him or come to know him. 7 Little children, let no one mislead you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as that one is righteous. 8 The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.

Is. 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
And your ways are not my ways," declares Jehovah.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So my ways are higher than your ways
And my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For just as the rain and the snow pour down from heaven
And do not return there until they saturate the earth, making it produce and sprout,
Giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
11 So my word that goes out of my mouth will be.
It will not return to me without results,
But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight,
And it will have sure success in what I send it to do.
12 For you will go out with rejoicing,
And in peace you will be brought back.
The mountains and the hills will become cheerful before you with a joyful cry,
And the trees of the field will all clap their hands.
13 Instead of thornbushes the juniper tree will grow,
And instead of the stinging nettle the myrtle tree will grow.
And it will bring fame to Jehovah,
An everlasting sign that will never perish."
... 56:1 This is what Jehovah says:
"Uphold justice, and do what is righteous,
For my salvation will soon come
And my righteousness will be revealed.

[Sherlock Holmes]

However - and I know I'm not alone here - Christianity itself, the New Testament, remarkable and thought provoking as it is, and not questioning the legitimacy of the texts we have access to, I am ultimately deeply puzzled by it all.

You don't state what it is about the N.T. that you find puzzling so it hard to address your O.P. in specifics.

If one accepts the idea that God is in some way responsible for the N.T., I think it will remain puzzling. In spite of what some claim, it does not present a unified message. Not even about what it takes to attain heaven.

If, however, one accepts the N.T. as a product of humans, the endeavor becomes clearer. One need not wonder why the story doesn't really add up and can begin to see it as simply a small section of human's ever evolving views on God and religious thought. It remains a challenging study, but at least now one stands a chance of comprehending it.


Tcg

Well Christ's statements about himself are very puzzling, for example:

Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Fathers name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Fathers hand. I and the Father are one."

there are numerous other examples too.

I disagree, to regard the NT as a product of human invention makes the matter even more bewildering.

First the NT shows little change from the very earliest scraps of manuscript to the more recent ones, the consistency is beyond comparison with anything else from antiquity, I just would not expect that if it were just a human invention with ideological or political motives behind it.

The prevalence of the NT is also beyond compare, there is more documentary basis to Christ existing and rising from the dead than there is about Spartacus for example.

But it is what is written that is bewildering, it doesn't try to "make sense" it describes people being confused even at the time, the message itself describes itself as being confusing, I'd expect human originated theology or doctrine to go to much greater pains to be understandable to the reader, but the NT does not nor have attempts been made to do so in the centuries following Christ, it has been left as is, faithfully copied with great care despite what must - for some - have been strong temptations to alter the text.

[Sherlock Holmes]

The world is filled with misery, pain, anguish and suffering, this is what has been created.

Children are abused and tortured the world over, people become sick and suffer misery and pain the world over, this is what I see, this is what has been created, but why?

No, it is not what has been created ... that was what humans achieved by separating from their Father.

But the Creator had a very different purpose when he created the planet and humans. Despite all the human misery of these times, the great and satisfying things that the Creator gave us are still clearly visible, because his goodness still reaches us.

This makes no sense, God's will cannot be resisted (it is written) yet you claim "the Creator had a very different purpose" so the purpose God set has been undermined by the very things he created.

How can God create something and then attribute the state of the system to anything other than himself?

[Eloi]

Since the enemy of God influenced the first couple created to disobey and separate from their heavenly Father, God revealed that he would put an end to this state of separation of humanity from his family:

Gen. 3:14 Then Jehovah God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel."

[Eloi]

The world is filled with misery, pain, anguish and suffering, this is what has been created.

Children are abused and tortured the world over, people become sick and suffer misery and pain the world over, this is what I see, this is what has been created, but why?

No, it is not what has been created ... that was what humans achieved by separating from their Father.

But the Creator had a very different purpose when he created the planet and humans. Despite all the human misery of these times, the great and satisfying things that the Creator gave us are still clearly visible, because his goodness still reaches us.

This makes no sense, God's will cannot be resisted (it is written) yet you claim "the Creator had a very different purpose" so the purpose God set has been undermined by the very things he created.

How can God create something and then attribute the state of the system to anything other than himself?

The intelligent beings that God created are free to decide whether to obey him or not ... exactly like you and me right now.