How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #111

Post by Difflugia »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:16 pmI'm not that interested in spending time debating or discussing this with those who are closed minded, already absolutely convinced beyond any shadow doubt that evolution is an absolute unquestionable fact.
Yes. There's the insult part of the debate strategy.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:16 pmThat because a majority believe it to be true then therefore it is true - this is an "argument" several have expressed here.
So far, that's only been presented as a response to your repeated "argument" that someone, somewhere believes it, therefore it's true. Several of us have, in fact, tried to engage with more specific arguments, but you've waved them away as beneath your attention.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #112

Post by The Barbarian »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:23 am No, go and seek for yourself without me imposing my ideas, if you are truly open minded you will find this, it is out there.
In fact, given your lack evidence to support your beliefs, he doesn't know if they even exist. In a debate, it's up to you to support your claim. Since you seem to be unable to do so, we can make only one conclusion.
[/quote]
What conclusion have you drawn exactly?
You don't know what evolution is, and you have no idea what the existing problems in evolution might be. You're refusing to engage on that issue, because you don't know anything about it.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #113

Post by The Barbarian »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:04 am Sorry, I'm not going to feed you here.
If you already really, really, believe there are no serious epistemological problems in evolution theory then so be it, that's up to you.

Since you have no idea what they might be, it's odd that you think they exist.
This proves my point - most evolution advocates are unaware of the theory's serious problems because in their world there can be no problems,
That would be a disaster for evolutionary theory. A field with no problems left to solve, is dead. This reinforces the impression that you have no idea what you're talking about.
because it is axiomatic that evolution is true no matter what objections or concerns others might raise
Directly observed cases of evolution happening pretty much settled that one. The old "I know a proof against evolution, but I'm not going to show it to you! So there!" game is tiresome, but at least you can serve as a bad example.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #114

Post by William »

How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Regardless of the theory, the fact that this universe exists, seems crazy. Add to that the fact that this planet with all its myriad of life-forms, seems crazy.
Add to that, consciousness existing within it all, seems crazy.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #115

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The Barbarian wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:13 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:23 am No, go and seek for yourself without me imposing my ideas, if you are truly open minded you will find this, it is out there.
In fact, given your lack evidence to support your beliefs, he doesn't know if they even exist. In a debate, it's up to you to support your claim. Since you seem to be unable to do so, we can make only one conclusion.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:23 amWhat conclusion have you drawn exactly?
The Barbarian wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:13 pm You don't know what evolution is, and you have no idea what the existing problems in evolution might be. You're refusing to engage on that issue, because you don't know anything about it.
I am refusing to engage with some here for the reasons I stated.

There is nothing to be gained, no purpose can be served, attempting to debate with those who are not truly open minded, truly willing to alter their position, the willingness to do that is necessary, why debate with someone who can never change their position?

At this point I regard some here as demonstrating no such willingness, no willingness, not agreeable to, having their position altered.

So if a person has already made it clear that the are unwilling to alter their position then why waste time arguing with them?

So far as I'm concerned too, anyone who argues "the majority is always right" or "evolution is a fact" is an utter waste of time to debate with, if their view is that truth rests upon that statistic then no amount of evidence, reasoning matters because I represent a minority view then that alone closes the matter.

I must have explained this quite a few times by now but its not sinking in, if you really want to believe that I do not understand evolution then what can I say, that is just another similar tactic, a variant of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #116

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #103]
People should be believed if their facts and arguments are reasonable, they should not be automatically disbelieved simply because they might form a minority or make claims that are at odds with established beliefs.
I underlined the important part of the above comment. This is exactly why evolution is believed to be a valid theory by the huge majority of scientists ... because it is supported, overwhelmingly, by actual real world evidence. You seem to ignore this crucial point, and instead suggest it is all part of wanting to be in a club or something like that rather than a well supported scientific theory that reached that status through many decades of gathering evidence and analyzing it. No one benefits from clinging to a theory that isn't supported (or abandoning one that does explain nature).
What do you mean "force"? nobody is forced to believe anything, take a look around, was Trump forced to believe he lost the election? was Giuliani forced to do so?
Missed another one. What I meant was that if there were legitimate claims against evolution that could be justified, and that raised genuine issues with its validity, then the science world could not just ignore this and do nothing, nor would they. They would be forced to look into claims that might threaten an accepted theory or else they would not be practicing science. This is true for any area of science, and a key aspect of how it has to work.

Flat earthers have been challenging the globe model forever, but it is pointless because their claims have long been shown to be utter nonsense. No science person would waste time on their nonsensical claims, no matter how many YouTube videos they do. What has evidently happened with the evolution errors you keep referring to in general terms but not describing in any detail (so we're left to guess) is that these objections are not supported sufficiently by evidence or valid arguments to break above the threshold of being taken seriously by the scientific community. Again, if someone could raise a legitimate argument against evolution and support it with evidence, it would get the attention of enough people to be taken seriously and investigated thoroughly.
You are assuming all humans are completely honest, selfless and dispassionate with these kinds of questions, but in my experience that's a very bad assumption.
I'm not making that assumption about "all humans", but with the scientific community and their methods in general. There are always bad apples in any field, but the entire science community is large enough and sufficiently well represented across the globe that it would be very difficult to pull the wool over the eyes of them all with false claims. If evolution were really fraught with problems as you are suggesting, many people would have taken up the cases and shown them to be worth further investigation. If you think support for evolution is some kind of conspiracy and people believe it because they have been brainwashed, or are sheep who can't think for themselves and just follow the crowd, then you're ignoring the mountains of evidence for it that got it from the hypothesis stage to the theory stage in the first place.
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Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #117

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

This is what we're dealing with here:

Tom: I cannot be convinced by you, nothing you say can alter my position on this because W is true.

Dick: Well what about X and Y? yes of course W is true but that's not important.

Tom: As I said, W is true so you must be wrong.

Dick: But W being true could be for many reasons, it doesn't serve as proof.

Tom: If you were right then W would not be true.

and so on and so forth.

Replace "W" with "99% of biologists believe evolution" or "evolution is a fact" and you'll begin to see what I saying, I've debated many times with people who argue this way, people who truly thought they had some intellectual position.
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #118

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #117]
There is nothing to be gained, no purpose can be served, attempting to debate with those who are not truly open minded, truly willing to alter their position, the willingness to do that is necessary, why debate with someone who can never change their position?
Then give us a reason to change our minds. Just saying that evolution has serious problems, then telling us to go find these problems for ourselves, isn't going to convince anyone to change their mind.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #119

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

DrNoGods wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:02 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #103]
People should be believed if their facts and arguments are reasonable, they should not be automatically disbelieved simply because they might form a minority or make claims that are at odds with established beliefs.
I underlined the important part of the above comment. This is exactly why evolution is believed to be a valid theory by the huge majority of scientists ... because it is supported, overwhelmingly, by actual real world evidence. You seem to ignore this crucial point, and instead suggest it is all part of wanting to be in a club or something like that rather than a well supported scientific theory that reached that status through many decades of gathering evidence and analyzing it. No one benefits from clinging to a theory that isn't supported (or abandoning one that does explain nature).
What do you mean "force"? nobody is forced to believe anything, take a look around, was Trump forced to believe he lost the election? was Giuliani forced to do so?
Missed another one. What I meant was that if there were legitimate claims against evolution that could be justified, and that raised genuine issues with its validity, then the science world could not just ignore this and do nothing, nor would they. They would be forced to look into claims that might threaten an accepted theory or else they would not be practicing science. This is true for any area of science, and a key aspect of how it has to work.

Flat earthers have been challenging the globe model forever, but it is pointless because their claims have long been shown to be utter nonsense. No science person would waste time on their nonsensical claims, no matter how many YouTube videos they do. What has evidently happened with the evolution errors you keep referring to in general terms but not describing in any detail (so we're left to guess) is that these objections are not supported sufficiently by evidence or valid arguments to break above the threshold of being taken seriously by the scientific community. Again, if someone could raise a legitimate argument against evolution and support it with evidence, it would get the attention of enough people to be taken seriously and investigated thoroughly.
You are assuming all humans are completely honest, selfless and dispassionate with these kinds of questions, but in my experience that's a very bad assumption.
I'm not making that assumption about "all humans", but with the scientific community and their methods in general. There are always bad apples in any field, but the entire science community is large enough and sufficiently well represented across the globe that it would be very difficult to pull the wool over the eyes of them all with false claims. If evolution were really fraught with problems as you are suggesting, many people would have taken up the cases and shown them to be worth further investigation. If you think support for evolution is some kind of conspiracy and people believe it because they have been brainwashed, or are sheep who can't think for themselves and just follow the crowd, then you're ignoring the mountains of evidence for it that got it from the hypothesis stage to the theory stage in the first place.
I will just say this, you wrote:
because it is supported, overwhelmingly, by actual real world evidence
yet as I tried, several times I tried, to point out, every falsified theory in the sciences was at one point also supported that way, such support, such "overwhelming" support in no way guarantees against future falsification.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #120

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

DrNoGods wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:07 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #117]
There is nothing to be gained, no purpose can be served, attempting to debate with those who are not truly open minded, truly willing to alter their position, the willingness to do that is necessary, why debate with someone who can never change their position?
Then give us a reason to change our minds. Just saying that evolution has serious problems, then telling us to go find these problems for ourselves, isn't going to convince anyone to change their mind.
The point is that nothing I can say under any circumstances would make some people change their mind, once they have demonstrated that they are absolutely not open to change, then at that point debate is pointless.

Can't you see? if a person truly believes that because 99% of biologists accept evolution then evolution must be true, there's no way to ever change their mind with science so long as the doubters are in the minority, no evidence, no data, no facts, nothing matters to such a person.

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