How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

Bust Nak
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #631

Post by Bust Nak »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:56 pm Its a reasonable question because one needs to establish to what degree human preparation influences the outcome.
As much as letting go of a ball influences its fall. You tell me how you want to quantity this.
Because the question had three components, "human intelligence" was only one of them.
What exactly are you referring to here? I ask because "did it require X," "is X necessary" and "could it be achieved without X" just sounded to me like three ways of asking the same question.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #632

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Bust Nak wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:55 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:56 pm Its a reasonable question because one needs to establish to what degree human preparation influences the outcome.
As much as letting go of a ball influences its fall. You tell me how you want to quantity this.
At last a response I can respect, I wonder why it took so long for someone to raise this, its the very first thing I'd have responded with if I'd been defending evolution (as I used to 35 years ago).

So of course all experimentation subjects the results to the influence of the experimenters, this is a totally valid reply.

I'll return to this later today, too busy just now.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #633

Post by Jose Fly »

Bust Nak wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:55 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:56 pm Its a reasonable question because one needs to establish to what degree human preparation influences the outcome.
As much as letting go of a ball influences its fall. You tell me how you want to quantity this.
Because the question had three components, "human intelligence" was only one of them.
What exactly are you referring to here? I ask because "did it require X," "is X necessary" and "could it be achieved without X" just sounded to me like three ways of asking the same question.
SH already explained how he approached the experiment: "I'm interested in one thing, namely demonstrating that the reasoning and arguments you are trying to use to support your beliefs are flawed".

And now that the discussion didn't go his way, he's abandoned it. But it's not like we haven't seen that sort of thing from creationists before. In fact, I'd say it's expected. In many cases the next step is for the creationist to appear in another thread, making the same failed arguments as if this conversation never occurred, and if anyone calls them out for it they squeal "Personal attack! Ad hominem!"

That's one of the creationists' most frequently used escape tactics.....behave in less than honorable ways and when anyone points it out, cry about being personally attacked and use that as an excuse to not have to talk to people (and hope that everyone forgets about your original behaviors). It's fascinating to watch, no matter how many times I see it.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #634

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:23 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:55 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:56 pm Its a reasonable question because one needs to establish to what degree human preparation influences the outcome.
As much as letting go of a ball influences its fall. You tell me how you want to quantity this.
Because the question had three components, "human intelligence" was only one of them.
What exactly are you referring to here? I ask because "did it require X," "is X necessary" and "could it be achieved without X" just sounded to me like three ways of asking the same question.
... In many cases the next step is for the creationist to appear in another thread, ...
Says the man who just started another thread about creationism!

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Jose Fly
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #635

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:50 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:23 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:55 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:56 pm Its a reasonable question because one needs to establish to what degree human preparation influences the outcome.
As much as letting go of a ball influences its fall. You tell me how you want to quantity this.
Because the question had three components, "human intelligence" was only one of them.
What exactly are you referring to here? I ask because "did it require X," "is X necessary" and "could it be achieved without X" just sounded to me like three ways of asking the same question.
... In many cases the next step is for the creationist to appear in another thread, ...
Says the man who just started another thread about creationism!
Except I haven't left this discussion. :roll:
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #636

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:55 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:50 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:23 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:55 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:56 pm Its a reasonable question because one needs to establish to what degree human preparation influences the outcome.
As much as letting go of a ball influences its fall. You tell me how you want to quantity this.
Because the question had three components, "human intelligence" was only one of them.
What exactly are you referring to here? I ask because "did it require X," "is X necessary" and "could it be achieved without X" just sounded to me like three ways of asking the same question.
... In many cases the next step is for the creationist to appear in another thread, ...
Says the man who just started another thread about creationism!
Except I haven't left this discussion. :roll:
Yes you did, you once again resorted to ad-hominem and when one does that they have - IMHO - stopped debating, metaphorically left the debate and instead turned to attacking the person, look at these recent remarks:
your primary interest in it is to find excuses
hoping to find some reason to dismiss it
Such is the nature of denialism.
And now that the discussion didn't go his way, he's abandoned it.
These are all examples of ad-hominem! and because you keep repeating this I am less and less inclined to spend time responding to you.

You claim to discuss to science, to want to discuss science, yet time and again we see that you keep returning to discussing me.

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Jose Fly
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #637

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:33 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:55 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:50 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:23 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:55 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:56 pm Its a reasonable question because one needs to establish to what degree human preparation influences the outcome.
As much as letting go of a ball influences its fall. You tell me how you want to quantity this.
Because the question had three components, "human intelligence" was only one of them.
What exactly are you referring to here? I ask because "did it require X," "is X necessary" and "could it be achieved without X" just sounded to me like three ways of asking the same question.
... In many cases the next step is for the creationist to appear in another thread, ...
Says the man who just started another thread about creationism!
Except I haven't left this discussion. :roll:
Yes you did, you once again resorted to ad-hominem and when one does that they have - IMHO - stopped debating, metaphorically left the debate and instead turned to attacking the person, look at these recent remarks:
your primary interest in it is to find excuses
hoping to find some reason to dismiss it
Such is the nature of denialism.
And now that the discussion didn't go his way, he's abandoned it.
These are all examples of ad-hominem! and because you keep repeating this I am less and less inclined to spend time responding to you.

You claim to discuss to science, to want to discuss science, yet time and again we see that you keep returning to discussing me.
???????? So you equate my characterizing your comment with leaving the thread? Er....um.....weird.

And btw, someone who flat out ignores as many papers that people post as you do probably shouldn't grouse about wanting to "discuss science". Unless you have no sense of irony that is....
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #638

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:39 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:33 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:55 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:50 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:23 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:55 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:56 pm Its a reasonable question because one needs to establish to what degree human preparation influences the outcome.
As much as letting go of a ball influences its fall. You tell me how you want to quantity this.
Because the question had three components, "human intelligence" was only one of them.
What exactly are you referring to here? I ask because "did it require X," "is X necessary" and "could it be achieved without X" just sounded to me like three ways of asking the same question.
... In many cases the next step is for the creationist to appear in another thread, ...
Says the man who just started another thread about creationism!
Except I haven't left this discussion. :roll:
Yes you did, you once again resorted to ad-hominem and when one does that they have - IMHO - stopped debating, metaphorically left the debate and instead turned to attacking the person, look at these recent remarks:
your primary interest in it is to find excuses
hoping to find some reason to dismiss it
Such is the nature of denialism.
And now that the discussion didn't go his way, he's abandoned it.
These are all examples of ad-hominem! and because you keep repeating this I am less and less inclined to spend time responding to you.

You claim to discuss to science, to want to discuss science, yet time and again we see that you keep returning to discussing me.
???????? So you equate my characterizing your comment with leaving the thread? Er....um.....weird.

And btw, someone who flat out ignores as many papers that people post as you do probably shouldn't grouse about wanting to "discuss science". Unless you have no sense of irony that is....
Please stop with the insults Jose, accusing me of "ignoring" because you did not get a reaction that you wanted is an insult, you have absolutely no idea what I've scanned, read, researched or studied in my own time away from these threads.

You have no idea, none, other than guesswork, I do hope that any claims you make about science or creation or anything else, are supported by more than guesswork.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #639

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:45 pm Please stop with the insults Jose, accusing me of "ignoring" because you did not get a reaction that you wanted is an insult, you have absolutely no idea what I've scanned, read, researched or studied in my own time away from these threads.

You have no idea, none, other than guesswork, I do hope that any claims you make about science or creation or anything else, are supported by more than guesswork.
The record shows that just in this thread I provided you with multiple papers on speciation, Barbarian provided you papers on the Cambrian, and you did not reply to, comment on, or even acknowledge them. In message board terms, that constitutes ignoring them.

You may not like that, but that's your issue, not anyone else's.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #640

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:48 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:45 pm Please stop with the insults Jose, accusing me of "ignoring" because you did not get a reaction that you wanted is an insult, you have absolutely no idea what I've scanned, read, researched or studied in my own time away from these threads.

You have no idea, none, other than guesswork, I do hope that any claims you make about science or creation or anything else, are supported by more than guesswork.
The record shows that just in this thread I provided you with multiple papers on speciation, Barbarian provided you papers on the Cambrian, and you did not reply to, comment on, or even acknowledge them. In message board terms, that constitutes ignoring them.

You may not like that, but that's your issue, not anyone else's.
No it does not Jose, what it constitutes is "not responding" a rather different thing to "ignoring".

I may or may not respond to any number of things and may have a reason or it might have simply passed by me in the to-and-fro of the discussion, but it is illogical and insulting for you to then judge that I have ignored them.

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