Mattman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:02 pm
[
Replying to theophile in post #13]
I think you're pressing a metaphor for precision on a topic it isn't trying to discuss and for real-world applications it does not intend. I don't think John wants us to think that God is averse to water and so is withholding a sea from the new creation. I think John wants to say that the destructive (or perhaps deconstructive) effects of sin will be done away with in the new kingdom. I don't see how more is intended than that when he uses the symbol of the sea.
Perhaps. I get that the sea is a metaphor, but I also think it's one of the most important and under-recognized concepts from all the way back to Genesis 1:2 (or more precisely, 'the deep' is, which I would argue is the cosmic version of the more earthly 'sea'). And I think there are some subtleties at play here which requires a certain level of precision, especially as we try to understand these concepts and/or their relationship to sin, which is mostly what I've been trying to parse out in your view.
Also, to clarify, I don't think God is averse to 'water', or that God is trying to 'withhold' the sea from the new creation. I
actually think that the sea is a
positive character in all this (or has the potential to be). It may very well represent disorder / chaos (or something along those lines as you say), but I don't see these as a bad thing, or as being annulled by God's order in the end times. The potential for disorder can and should remain;
the problem is when disorder is allowed to fester into outright rebellion (/sin).
That may get to the heart of our difference. I see a purposeful effort by the authors to
preserve a little bit of chaos in the mix, and that disorder is almost a necessity for anything new and to keep things moving. We see this in Genesis 1 when 'the sea' is given a place on earth (like I said, an earthly version of the more cosmic 'deep'). We see it again in the serpent of Genesis 3. (This is in contradistinction to the Enuma Elish, where it is only out of
the corpse of the sea / dragon Tiamat that order / life can flow...)
So if I jump to what I think the answer is to my question in the OP, it's not that the sea is destroyed, withheld, or anything like that. It's rather that the sea has at last been subdued (per Genesis 1) and
joined to God in partnership. The churning waters of the sea are transformed into the 'water of life' (per Revelation 21:6), and its disordering power, rather than being annulled, or leading to rebellion (/sin), now flows down more positive channels.
Like I said, subtle shifts from what you laid out, but perhaps some key differences.