How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3935
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1250 times
Been thanked: 802 times

How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 352 times
Been thanked: 1054 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #671

Post by Jose Fly »

William wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:51 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:07 pm
William wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:41 pm If it weren't for the condition you hold on such things being 'not worth debating' - my observations above will never be able to be shown by you to be incorrect. :(
Well that's kinda the point. Gods can do absolutely anything and everything, which means it's impossible to show anything about them to be incorrect. That's why it's a pointless debate.
Therefore a pointless debate on such matters is significant that such matters are evidently unable to be debunked.

Folk who lack belief in gods, must therefore do so for some other reasons...
That's not limited to debates about gods; it applies to any debate about what effectively boils down to "magic". Once you enter into that realm, nothing can be "debunked". It's the old "invisible magic unicorn on the moon" concept. Can you debunk the belief that it exists? If you can't, does that mean it therefore exists?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #672

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:04 pm
William wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:51 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:07 pm
William wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:41 pm If it weren't for the condition you hold on such things being 'not worth debating' - my observations above will never be able to be shown by you to be incorrect. :(
Well that's kinda the point. Gods can do absolutely anything and everything, which means it's impossible to show anything about them to be incorrect. That's why it's a pointless debate.
Therefore a pointless debate on such matters is significant that such matters are evidently unable to be debunked.

Folk who lack belief in gods, must therefore do so for some other reasons...
That's not limited to debates about gods; it applies to any debate about what effectively boils down to "magic". Once you enter into that realm, nothing can be "debunked". It's the old "invisible magic unicorn on the moon" concept. Can you debunk the belief that it exists? If you can't, does that mean it therefore exists?
Well you'll find if you think about this, that nothing really can be "debunked" (proven false).

The only way one can attempt this is to first assume some fundamental axioms and then on the strength of those reason scientifically (inductively).

I don't like to dwell on trivial, uninteresting examples like a unicorn on the moon, but more fundamental, interesting propositions like can it be proved that all natural things have natural explanations or can it be proved that nothing can happen that is at variance with laws of nature and so on.

I don't make any sort of judgment about humanity not having answers only that it is important that there might be aspects of reality beyond the reach of scientific testability.

User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 352 times
Been thanked: 1054 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #673

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:18 pmWell you'll find if you think about this, that nothing really can be "debunked" (proven false).
In an absolute sense, that's correct. There's always the possibility of some new discovery or bit of data that shows the earth to be flat, but in a practical sense it's so unlikely as to be effectively "proven false".
The only way one can attempt this is to first assume some fundamental axioms and then on the strength of those reason scientifically (inductively).

I don't like to dwell on trivial, uninteresting examples like a unicorn on the moon, but more fundamental, interesting propositions like can it be proved that all natural things have natural explanations or can it be proved that nothing can happen that is at variance with laws of nature and so on.

I don't make any sort of judgment about humanity not having answers only that it is important that there might be aspects of reality beyond the reach of scientific testability.
And as I said, that's not a debate I'm very interested in.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 15260
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 975 times
Been thanked: 1801 times
Contact:

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #674

Post by William »

[Replying to Jose Fly in post #671]
That's not limited to debates about gods; it applies to any debate about what effectively boils down to "magic". Once you enter into that realm, nothing can be "debunked". It's the old "invisible magic unicorn on the moon" concept. Can you debunk the belief that it exists? If you can't, does that mean it therefore exists?
No. But I see no reason to place the idea of a Cosmic Mind in the department of magic, any more than I would do so, regarding the understanding that the Universe is shaping our opinion and thus our morals.

Indeed, the evidence supporting the likely existence of said mind, gives us no reason to compartmentalize it as 'magic'.

User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 352 times
Been thanked: 1054 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #675

Post by Jose Fly »

William wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:29 pm No. But I see no reason to place the idea of a Cosmic Mind in the department of magic, any more than I would do so, regarding the understanding that the Universe is shaping our opinion and thus our morals.

Indeed, the evidence supporting the likely existence of said mind, gives us no reason to compartmentalize it as 'magic'.
Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining. :)
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 15260
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 975 times
Been thanked: 1801 times
Contact:

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #676

Post by William »

[Replying to Jose Fly in post #675]

So are you interested?

User avatar
alexxcJRO
Guru
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:54 am
Location: Cluj, Romania
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 215 times
Contact:

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #677

Post by alexxcJRO »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:18 pm

Well you'll find if you think about this, that nothing really can be "debunked" (proven false).

The only way one can attempt this is to first assume some fundamental axioms and then on the strength of those reason scientifically (inductively).

I don't like to dwell on trivial, uninteresting examples like a unicorn on the moon, but more fundamental, interesting propositions like can it be proved that all natural things have natural explanations or can it be proved that nothing can happen that is at variance with laws of nature and so on.

I don't make any sort of judgment about humanity not having answers only that it is important that there might be aspects of reality beyond the reach of scientific testability.

1.

“There are no scientific axioms. Axioms apply only to mathematics and logic.
Mathematical axioms like definitions define a context. You can look at a context as being the boundaries of a mathematical universe.
The boundaries of mathematical universes-contexts, are utterly contrived. They are fabrications of human minds, with no necessary linkage to the natural world.
Axioms are the rules that are contained within a context. Again, the rules are only part of the context, but like the rest of the context, are utterly contrived.
“Scientific axiom” is an oxymoron. To create an axiom about the natural world is an attempt to create boundaries of the natural world, but the natural world is not a human contrivance. The natural world exists outside of the human minds, and thus, is not subject to contrived human constraints.
The scientific method relies on the falsifiability of a theory. Scepticism, taken to the extreme(Solipsism) is not falsifiable because it has no presuppositions.

Steps of the Scientific Method:
Observation/Research
Hypothesis
Prediction
Experimentation
Conclusion

Science doesn't proceed from logic alone, which when taken to extremes can result in scepticism or Solopsism. Some scepticism exists in science but not to the degree of non-falsifiability. Further, pure logic rests on shaky ground due to Gödel's theorem.
Science, then, postulates that pure logic alone is not enough to model how the universe works. If it were, then science would have no ground to start from and certainly wouldn't be capable of falsifiability.

“Scientific axiom” is similar to "scientific proof", another oxymoron. "Proof" gives an air of objectivity, rigor, and completeness, even though proof is impossible in a scientific context. Similarly, 'axiom' gives an excuse not to have to justify, or a reason to disdain challenge, even though 'axiom' is meaningless in a scientific context. You (Sherlock Holmes) can use rhetorical doublespeak to game the language, to assign false legitimacy to otherwise unsupportable propositions: God-Creationism.”

2.

Assumption: I assume the three fundamental axioms-laws of logic (1) the law of contradiction, (2) the law of excluded middle (or third), and (3) the principle of identity are absolutely true.

Concept C: Yahweh-Jesus is supposedly according to the bible an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being that wants me to believe in him and have a relationship with me based on love, trust.

Existence of my genuine disbelief in Yahweh-Jesus and existence of innate psychopathy prove C to be false, to be debunked.

Q: Is it ok to say nothing really can be "debunked" (proven false) because the three fundamental laws of logic may be false? Is it possible for them to be false?

You need to prove these absolutes can be false first and only then you can say nothing really can be "debunked" (proven false) because the three fundamental laws of logic may be false. 8-)
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 352 times
Been thanked: 1054 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #678

Post by Jose Fly »

William wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:02 pm [Replying to Jose Fly in post #675]

So are you interested?
No, but thanks for asking. :)
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 15260
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 975 times
Been thanked: 1801 times
Contact:

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #679

Post by William »

Jose Fly wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:50 pm
William wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:02 pm [Replying to Jose Fly in post #675]

So are you interested?
No, but thanks for asking. :)
The reason I am asking is to determine from your answer, the position you are holding.

"No" doesn't help me determine that.

User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 352 times
Been thanked: 1054 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #680

Post by Jose Fly »

William wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 1:37 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:50 pm
William wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:02 pm [Replying to Jose Fly in post #675]

So are you interested?
No, but thanks for asking. :)
The reason I am asking is to determine from your answer, the position you are holding.

"No" doesn't help me determine that.
Sorry 'bout that. You're asking about my position on what exactly?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Post Reply