"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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Miles
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"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #151

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to onewithhim in post #148]

There is no excuse to say that suddenly they have found that the WTS isn't teaching the truth. It is a cop-out.

Is that what you say about people who leave other religions for that same reason?
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #152

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:29 am
I found out that the WTS isn't teaching the truth, and I was never even part of the organization. Good enough for me to take their side
So, it seems you do not see any need to verify if factual information is being presented, but will rather accept as true that which is proposed by anyone who dislikes the teachings and policies of Jehovah's Witnesses.
So ... if you were told we ritualistically dance naked around our kingdom halls, sacrificing and drinking the blood of young goats ... as long as it was being proposed by an ex-Wtiness that would be good enough for you?
I have presented in an organised fashion what we teach and practice regarding biblical shunning, along with the relevant articles. I have also highlighted pertinent questions somebody seeking to anaysisng claims from an ex-witness that they were disfellowshipped for simply no longer believing we have the truth.
- they did not present a formal request to be disassociated
- they did not engaged in behaviours violate bible standards as defined by our religion either during or immediently following active association with our religion

You ask about my methodology when I answer, its quite simple, to never take my eye of the ball, to not be distracted by irrelevancies and to address every angle of the point at hand even if it has to be extracted with a pair of tweezers from a 12 paragraph anti-witness rant. My goal in this thread was to address the following ...
- what are the Jehovah's Witnesses policies regarding disfellowshipping and shunning?
- can we confidently say they are consistently applied?
If you have anything else to add that does not amount to ad hominem and heresay feel free, otherwise ...I think my work here is done.




JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #153

Post by onewithhim »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:29 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:27 pm If ex-Witnesses' complaints were analyzed we might see the flimsiness of their stories. I have indeed seen so-called documentary reports concerning certain ex-JWs claiming various things, and I could see right through what they were saying. I have watched the accounts by a couple of "brothers" before I knew they were turning apostate, them telling bold-faced lies about what the organization does. I have known JWs who turned against the organization...known them closely, they were good friends of mine. I know what goes through an ex-JW's mind, believe me. "Finding out that the WTS isn't the truth" is a really weak stance. Before baptism a person has to go through a fairly long educational time period, and they know everything about the organization. I know this. I went through it 47 years ago. A person knows all about doctrine and ours compared with other religions' doctrines. There is no excuse to say that suddenly they have found that the WTS isn't teaching the truth. It is a cop-out.
Sooo, what we have here is a conflict between Ex-Witnesses claims about Jehovah's Witnesses, and that of active Witnesses.

Which is not uncommon. Whenever you have defactors of an organization/party/religion...there will always be..

Defactors: "Those guys are crazy, they partake in X,Y,Z"

Remainders: "Those guys are lying. They are just disgruntled workers who left because they couldn't take the heat."

Never fails.

My response? Well, you say there is no excuse when they suddenly have found that the WTS isn't teaching the truth.

Well, guess what?

I found out that the WTS isn't teaching the truth, and I was never even part of the organization.

Good enough for me to take their side. :ok:

And besides, have you ever considered that the reason an Ex Witness would leave the organization, because perhaps their light had gotten "brighter"?

:lol:
No, sorry to say, their light went out.

I think I asked you to be specific about what you see as the WTS not teaching the truth. Could you please?

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #154

Post by tam »

Peace again to you all,
tam wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:50 am Peace to you,
[Replying to onewithhim in post #148]

There is no excuse to say that suddenly they have found that the WTS isn't teaching the truth. It is a cop-out.

Is that what you say about people who leave other religions for that same reason?
I am just going to add something to this question... because it actually does not matter if you learned everything there is to know about JW theology before joining (even though that is highly unlikely). If you have EVER thought something was true at one point in your life, only to later realize that it is not true after all, then you have no right to be judging someone else for doing the very same thing.




Peace again.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #155

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:50 pm Peace again to you all,
tam wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:50 am Peace to you,
[Replying to onewithhim in post #148]

There is no excuse to say that suddenly they have found that the WTS isn't teaching the truth. It is a cop-out.

Is that what you say about people who leave other religions for that same reason?
No because I know in other religions they don't get a thorough in depth education in the Bible. Not even priests. They get indoctrinated in church history and man-made doctrines, but not the Bible. (I asked a priest once, "What is the Kingdom of God?" He said, "I don't know.") JWs know what it is and are the only ones on Earth teaching the truth about it. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I've spent many years visiting other religions and comparing what they said with the Bible, and finally I ran into JWs who taught things that I had already made up my mind that I agreed with.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #156

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:21 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:50 am Peace to you,
[Replying to onewithhim in post #148]

There is no excuse to say that suddenly they have found that the WTS isn't teaching the truth. It is a cop-out.

Is that what you say about people who leave other religions for that same reason?
No because I know in other religions they don't get a thorough in depth education in the Bible.


Some may, some may not. The point is that they knew what their religion taught, joined (or remained in) it, and later came to realize that their religion (and at least some of its teachings) were not true.
Not even priests. They get indoctrinated in church history and man-made doctrines, but not the Bible. (I asked a priest once, "What is the Kingdom of God?" He said, "I don't know.") JWs know what it is and are the only ones on Earth teaching the truth about it.


Jw's have one thing (that I know of) about the Kingdom that is correct. The Kingdom will be established upon the earth. But then their teachings and details surrounding that one thing, are incorrect.

The jw religion even tells her members that they cannot be part of the Kingdom itself (that they cannot reign with Christ, that they cannot be the brothers of Christ, that they cannot partake of the body and blood of Christ - something that Christ said anyone could do, and that unless one does this one has no life in them; and that it is the one who eats His flesh and drinks His blood who remains in Him and Him in them). They are LITERALLY fulfilling Matt 23:13.

Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I've spent many years visiting other religions and comparing what they said with the Bible, and finally I ran into JWs who taught things that I had already made up my mind that I agreed with.
I don't doubt what you said you did. Are you sure that is the right way to know what is true though?

After I ended my bible study with the jw religion, I went and researched many other sects as well. I was looking for the sect/denomination that agreed with the things that I believed (and I had also studied the bible... two years with jws, and some time on my own after that).

But then one day my Lord asked me if something was true because it agreed with me - or with Him? But of course I knew the answer to that as soon as He asked it! I cannot hold something up to myself or my own beliefs to see if it is true. I am not the Truth. He is the Truth. I must hold all things up to Him to see if something is true. That is when I stopped researching other religions and knew and chose instead to follow Christ alone, to remain in Him, listening to Him. That is when I stopped worrying about what various men/religions taught and their various doctrines (trinity, etc). If Christ taught/teaches something, then I can know it is true. If it is not what He teaches, then I don't need to worry about it. I am just to follow and remain in Him, in His word.

For example, there is no direct scripture that states 'there is no trinity', but Christ does not teach that He is part of a trinity. He said that He is the Son of God. So that (Christ being the Son of God) is the truth of the matter. Simple. Same with the "Christ is Michael" doctrine. There is no scripture that directly states 'Christ is not Michael'. Yet He does not EVEN ONCE teach that He is Michael. There is also no direct scripture that states 'hell is not eternal conscious torment', but Christ does not ever teach that doctrine (nor does something like that come from love, which God is).


Men teach all sorts of erroneous things, all kinds of doctrines, doctrines they justify with what is written in the bible (and remember, people search/study the scriptures all day long, and yet even two thousand years ago, with all their searching and studying, people still did not recognize the Truth when He was standing right in front of them, speaking face to face with them... John 5:39. It is no different today). I don't see how Christ could possibly have countered word for word each and every false thing that men were going to teach over the last two thousand years. It is enough that He warned us there would be false teachers, false prophets, false christs. That He told us to remain in HIM, to listen to HIM, to follow HIM.


If Christ says anyone may eat and drink of His flesh and blood... and a religion says 'no, only some may eat and drink of His flesh and blood'... well, I know who I will listen to.


May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to know the truth from the One who is the Truth: Christ Jaheshua. May anyone who thirsts and anyone who wishes, "Come, take the free gift of the water of Life!"



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #157

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:46 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:21 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:50 am Peace to you,
[Replying to onewithhim in post #148]

There is no excuse to say that suddenly they have found that the WTS isn't teaching the truth. It is a cop-out.

Is that what you say about people who leave other religions for that same reason?
No because I know in other religions they don't get a thorough in depth education in the Bible.


Some may, some may not. The point is that they knew what their religion taught, joined (or remained in) it, and later came to realize that their religion (and at least some of its teachings) were not true.
Not even priests. They get indoctrinated in church history and man-made doctrines, but not the Bible. (I asked a priest once, "What is the Kingdom of God?" He said, "I don't know.") JWs know what it is and are the only ones on Earth teaching the truth about it.


Jw's have one thing (that I know of) about the Kingdom that is correct. The Kingdom will be established upon the earth. But then their teachings and details surrounding that one thing, are incorrect.

The jw religion even tells her members that they cannot be part of the Kingdom itself (that they cannot reign with Christ, that they cannot be the brothers of Christ, that they cannot partake of the body and blood of Christ - something that Christ said anyone could do, and that unless one does this one has no life in them; and that it is the one who eats His flesh and drinks His blood who remains in Him and Him in them). They are LITERALLY fulfilling Matt 23:13.

Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I've spent many years visiting other religions and comparing what they said with the Bible, and finally I ran into JWs who taught things that I had already made up my mind that I agreed with.
I don't doubt what you said you did. Are you sure that is the right way to know what is true though?

After I ended my bible study with the jw religion, I went and researched many other sects as well. I was looking for the sect/denomination that agreed with the things that I believed (and I had also studied the bible... two years with jws, and some time on my own after that).

But then one day my Lord asked me if something was true because it agreed with me - or with Him?
That is part of what I am saying. I found a religion that agrees with our Lord. I studied for a long time to find out just what our Lord was teaching, and lo-and-behold, the JWs did just that.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #158

Post by tam »

Peace again to you,
[Replying to onewithhim in post #157]

I found a religion that agrees with our Lord. I studied for a long time to find out just what our Lord was teaching, and lo-and-behold, the JWs did just that.
I don't know how you can make that statement in light of the following:


If Christ says anyone may eat and drink of His flesh and blood... and a religion says 'no, only some may eat and drink of His flesh and blood'... well, I know who I will listen to.


There are other things, but this one is just so black and white. But please do not think that I am judging - and if I have come off that way, then I apologize. I am not judging. It is not my place (nor my right, nor my desire). I can only hold others' claims up to the Light (who is Christ), and point to Him as the One to ask if one wishes to know the truth of this or any other matter.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #159

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 6:02 pm Peace again to you,
[Replying to onewithhim in post #157]

I found a religion that agrees with our Lord. I studied for a long time to find out just what our Lord was teaching, and lo-and-behold, the JWs did just that.
I don't know how you can make that statement in light of the following:


If Christ says anyone may eat and drink of His flesh and blood... and a religion says 'no, only some may eat and drink of His flesh and blood'... well, I know who I will listen to.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
OK I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Where does Christ say that anyone may eat and drink of his flesh and blood?

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #160

Post by tam »

Peace again to you,
onewithhim wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:07 pm
tam wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 6:02 pm Peace again to you,
[Replying to onewithhim in post #157]

I found a religion that agrees with our Lord. I studied for a long time to find out just what our Lord was teaching, and lo-and-behold, the JWs did just that.
I don't know how you can make that statement in light of the following:


If Christ says anyone may eat and drink of His flesh and blood... and a religion says 'no, only some may eat and drink of His flesh and blood'... well, I know who I will listen to.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
OK I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Where does Christ say that anyone may eat and drink of his flesh and blood?
Thank you. John 6

“I am the bread of life.r 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”

Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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