How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #741

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:43 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:39 pm [Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #729]

Just listen to the Berlinski talk, its just four minutes long, he summarizes some of these well.
I'm more interested in your argument, not someone else's.

It'd help to know where you might have it right, or where ya don't.
I agree with Berlinski, I share his opinion on this.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #742

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The Barbarian wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:51 pm I'm wondering, if he can't even explain Berlinski's argument to us, how he knows it's worth anything at all.
Why must I explain what Berlinski says? are you trying to say you do not understand him? you need me to simplify it for you?

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #743

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

[Replying to The Barbarian in post #737]

Hardly a very scholarly post Barbarian, I mean look what's out there if only one is patient and thorough:
Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics wrote:The fundamental point that Berlinski wishes to drive home is that astrology, as conceived, altered, fine-tuned, and practiced over millennia by brilliant and intelligent theoreticians and experimentalists, is a failed science.
bit of an "own goal" really wasn't it!

Review.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #744

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

All emphasis mine:
The Barbarian wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:10 am
The Barbarian wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:00 pm But you were going to tell us which of Darwin's four points have been falsified. When do you think we'll be seeing that from you?
I'm beginning to suspect that we aren't going to get an answer. :(
You are quite mistaken; I must refer you to this post from yesterday:

Sherlock Holmes

In there lies the answer to your question:
Point 4. That this is sufficient to explain the presence of complex life we see today, the sufficiency has not been demonstrated so why should I believe it is sufficient?
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:54 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #745

Post by Jose Fly »

Just as I said when I first posted in this thread....it's no different than any other attempt to debate a creationist. Creationists are great at making rather bold claims, but when it comes to getting them to back up those claims or even answer basic questions like "what do you mean", it's like pulling teeth (as my grandma used to say).

Thus we see why this truly is a dead issue. If there were actual substance behind creationists' claims, they would be eager to post it and challenge everyone else to refute it. That they dodge and evade requests for such substance is a clear indication that they don't have any.

It's also rather boring.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #746

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The Barbarian wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 11:28 am BTW, Johannes Kepler (of Kepler's Laws fame) actually did horoscopes for people. He was one of the few Renaissance scientists who were not independently wealthy, and because he could use extremely accurate information on the position of stars and planets, he made a pretty good living from it.

After I retired from my first career, I became a teacher for a few years. Once, in a science class, several students expressed confidence in Astrology. I suggested a test to see how it worked. Each student gave me their birthday, I made up horoscopes for the class. The next day, I handed them out. Each had a place to rate how accurate it was. All but one student found them to be extremely accurate. After this, I had them hand theirs to another student to see if they agreed as to how accurate it was.

Then they discovered that I had given identical horoscopes to every one of them. I had written about things true of most people, along with a few things all people like to believe about themselves. And then I asked them if they could hypothesize why so many people believe in astrology.

The student who did not find the horoscope accurate was a devout Christian who believed astrology was an affront to God, and possibly demonic.
Fascinating; and the relevance of astrology to this discussion is? ahh of course! the relevance is that it's a handy little strawman, an oft used tool of my opponents when all else fails them.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #747

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:24 pm Just as I said when I first posted in this thread....it's no different than any other attempt to debate a creationist. Creationists are great at making rather bold claims, but when it comes to getting them to back up those claims or even answer basic questions like "what do you mean", it's like pulling teeth (as my grandma used to say).

Thus we see why this truly is a dead issue. If there were actual substance behind creationists' claims, they would be eager to post it and challenge everyone else to refute it. That they dodge and evade requests for such substance is a clear indication that they don't have any.

It's also rather boring.
Yet not quite boring enough that you can resist posting another ad hominem fallacious argument.

Stick to the subject please and not your biased opinions and rude stereotyping.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #748

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:29 pm Stick to the subject please and not your biased opinions and rude stereotyping.
Then stop behaving in such a stereotypical manner. Back up your claims. Answer questions. Engage openly and in good faith.

Or maybe it'd be an interesting exercise to go back through this thread and quote how many times people have made the same observations as I did. As a guy I knew used to say, if one person tells you something, that's just their opinion. When two people tell you something, you might want to think about it. But when multiple people keep telling you the same thing, there's probably something to what they're saying.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #749

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:40 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:29 pm Stick to the subject please and not your biased opinions and rude stereotyping.
Then stop behaving in such a stereotypical manner. Back up your claims. Answer questions. Engage openly and in good faith.

Or maybe it'd be an interesting exercise to go back through this thread and quote how many times people have made the same observations as I did. As a guy I knew used to say, if one person tells you something, that's just their opinion. When two people tell you something, you might want to think about it. But when multiple people keep telling you the same thing, there's probably something to what they're saying.
What specifically has you so upset today? did I overlook or miss a question you asked me? unless you can express your problem clearly regarding what's upset you I can hardly be expected to address it, this is a reasonable question Jose, just engage openly and in good faith.

Barbarian accused me of not responding too, yet look at the facts in that case, I don't expect an apology of course, that would be asking too much.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #750

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:44 pm What specifically has you so upset today? did I overlook or miss a question you asked me? unless you can express your problem clearly regarding what's upset you I can hardly be expected to address it, this is a reasonable question Jose, just engage openly and in good faith.
LOL....no, not upset. "Amused" is more accurate. I'm amused at how often creationists think they, or their arguments, are new and unique yet as the thread moves forward it quickly becomes clear that it's all just a rehash of stale talking points that have been done to death.

Y'all could really use some new arguments.
Barbarian accused me of not responding too, yet look at the facts in that case, I don't expect an apology of course, that would be asking too much.
Did you ever respond to the papers on the Cambrian he linked to? Did you ever respond to the papers on speciation I linked to? Did you ever acknowledge that a definition of science that includes natural explanations isn't unique to the AAAS? Did you ever acknowledge that one of your preferred sources (Wiki) defines it that way? Have you ever presented your case that you claim has falsified evolution? Have you ever explained what specifically in Berlinski's video you think is compelling?

Again, the stereotype of the creationist is "makes bold claims, dodges requests to back them up". Prove me wrong here....deviate from that stereotype.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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