Russia Attacks Ukraine

[Diogenes]

For the first time since 1939 a major European power, Russia, has attacked another country in Europe, Ukraine. We have not seen an analogous situation since Germany attacked Poland setting off World War 2. Surprisingly we have Neville Chamberlain like appeasement/isolationist responses from Donald Trump and Tucker Carlson. Besides the 180 turn from traditional Republican politics, to what extent are these events relevant to Christianity?

[AgnosticBoy]

Continuing from my last post:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/am ... oy-troops/

Theres little doubt that Americans view Russia as a threat, though. Indeed, 71 percent of Americans told The Economist/YouGov this week that Russia posed a somewhat or serious threat to the U.S., with 41 percent calling Russia an "immediate and serious" threat higher than for any other country or group the poll asked about.

. And in the same survey, 52 percent said it was more important for the U.S. to take a "strong stand" against Russia to prevent it from taking over Ukraine, compared with 24 percent who said it was more important to maintain good relations with Russia. On that question, a majority of both Democrats and Republicans prioritized opposing Russia in the Ukraine situation.

.............

Even some Democrats consider Russia as "friendly" but from that small percentage we should not conclude that Democrats support Russia:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... -post-abc/

Trump recently praised Putins moves against Ukraine, but nonetheless sentiments about Russia are roughly aligned across the political spectrum. Twelve percent of Democrats say they consider Russia an ally or friendly nation, while 14 percent of Republicans shared that view. Ten percent of independents are positive toward the Cold War foe.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I do wonder, given the realities here, whether Ukraine surrendering is not the most humanitarian option. Russia could by now, have done what the US did in Iraq, and completely obliterated all combatants, infrastructure, roads, sewage treatment plants, desalination facilities, power stations, airports, pharmaceutical plants, oil fields, military hospitals etc, with round the clock, non stop cruise missiles, but it has not. Are they exercising restraint I ask myself.

But either way, Russia will not relent, nor will any external military power thwart them, so surrendering now will arguably save lives and infrastructure.

Defeat for the Ukraine leadership seems inevitable, so why not surrender? The French did this in WW2 and likely saved many thousands of lives and much of their country.

[Purple Knight]

I wonder how the US government would react if California became an independent sovereign country and was expressing an interest in joining a military alliance with say China, and already receiving weapons shipments from China. I doubt they'd sit and watch it unfold.

You don't have to wonder. The Confederates wanted to separate and were not given the opportunity. War ensued. That's without more than half of your proposed scenario.

I think that was wrong however, and I don't think it was about slavery but control.

That's not to say that everything that's wrong, we can, or even should, do anything about.

Defeat for the Ukraine leadership seems inevitable, so why not surrender? The French did this in WW2 and likely saved many thousands of lives and much of their country.

Probably a better option than some busybody country protecting them from the big bad guy for 20 years, then deciding it doesn't want to anymore, then leaving them to not only fend for themselves but absorb the result of the accumulated malice against them for having resisted so long.

[Sherlock Holmes]

This is an Amnesty International report from 2015, it helps provide a context that is being all but expunged from the incessant propaganda on western TV and western press.

Here's another about mass graves, several times I've seen this dismissed as Russian propaganda recently, yet as you can see its been a long standing fact.

[Jose Fly]

Republicans support Russia invading Ukraine? What is the evidence? Poll numbers?

I didn't say they support it, I said Republicans have defended and apologized for it. For example, Trump:

""I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, This is genius, " Trump continued. "Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine of Ukraine. Putin declares it as independent. Oh, thats wonderful. So, Putin is now saying, Its independent, a large section of Ukraine. I said, How smart is that? And hes gonna go in and be a peacekeeper. Thats strongest peace force We could use that on our southern border."

He continued to praise Putin a bit later.

"Heres a guy that says, you know, Im gonna declare a big portion of Ukraine independent he used the word independent and were gonna go out and were gonna go in and were gonna help keep peace, " Trump said. "You gotta say thats pretty savvy."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... ud-expect/

I'm asking because I've seen every news station coverage, from Fox News to MSNBC. All seem to condemn Russia including their guest speakers/commentators. Tucker Carlson and Trump made some remarks but that's just two people, certainly shouldn't draw conclusions based on that alone. If I can find a poll then I'll be sure to post that here.

Trump is effectively the head of the Republican Party and Carlson is the most popular conservative pundit, so they're not "just two people".

[AgnosticBoy]

Accidental double post.. delete.

[AgnosticBoy]

Trump is effectively the head of the Republican Party and Carlson is the most popular conservative pundit, so they're not "just two people".

On this issue, those two are not representative of the Republican party. It seems that you were trying to paint a picture about Republicans since you said the following right after your comments about Republicans defending the Russian invasion...

Polls have shown that Republican voters have a more favorable view of Putin than they do of Pres. Biden and they view Putin as a "very strong leader". I'd seen studies showing that evangelical Christians tend towards authoritarianism, so I guess we're seeing how that mentality is applied in the real world.

This came right after your statement about Republicans and Christians "defending" and "excusing" Russia...

If Trump or anyone else is just saying that Putin is a strong or smart leader, that doesn't mean that they'll agree with every decision the leader makes or that the leader will always be right. You can have one without the other. It's partisan spin (which is typical of mainstream media) to use that to support the claim that Republicans support the Russian invasion.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'm starting to think that it is a huge failure of the Western press and media that we see large anti-Russia protests yet no anti-NATO protests.

The view that NATO is somehow the benevolent peace seeking organization and Russia is the malevolent evil war monger is popular right now among the public yet utterly false, ridiculously simplistic but the dominant view expressed in the news.

If we wanted to avoid war in Europe we should first and foremost take steps to curtail NATO it is NATO that looms as a growing huge military threat to Russia and arguably China.

Russia has nuclear weapons in Russia, we have nuclear weapons here and in Belgium, Germany, Italy, Netherlands and Turkey (it was the presence of nukes in Turkey in the 1960s that prompted the USSR to send nukes to Cuba by the way)

As we speak many countries are planning to supply weapons and ammunition to Ukraine, thus using Ukraine as the proxy to fight Russia, if they want peace they would never do this, the more they arm Ukraine the more Russia will fight and the more devastation will ensue.

It was arming Ukraine after the 2014 coup, that has provoked what we see today: Brookings Institute - Why Arming the Ukrainians is a Bad Idea.

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm starting to think that it is a huge failure of the Western press and media that we see large anti-Russia protests yet no anti-NATO protests.

The view that NATO is somehow the benevolent peace seeking organization and Russia is the malevolent evil war monger is popular right now among the public yet utterly false, ridiculously simplistic but the dominant view expressed in the news.

If we wanted to avoid war in Europe we should first and foremost take steps to curtail NATO it is NATO that looms as a growing huge military threat to Russia and arguably China.

Russia has nuclear weapons in Russia, we have nuclear weapons here and in Belgium, Germany, Italy, Netherlands and Turkey (it was the presence of nukes in Turkey in the 1960s that prompted the USSR to send nukes to Cuba by the way)

As we speak many countries are planning to supply weapons and ammunition to Ukraine, thus using Ukraine as the proxy to fight Russia, if they want peace they would never do this, the more they arm Ukraine the more Russia will fight and the more devastation will ensue.

I encourage you to not do as some of the Trump haters do, ... i.e. I hate Trump, therefore the Democrats are good.

If BOTH Nato and Russia are corrupt, then we should be talking about addressing the wrongdoings of BOTH. Just addressing one side won't help. It comes off as partisan. Russia was wrong here, even if NATO has been wrong in the past.

[Jose Fly]

On this issue, those two are not representative of the Republican party. It seems that you were trying to paint a picture about Republicans since you said the following right after your comments about Republicans defending the Russian invasion...

That would have more impact if there were examples of other Republican leaders and elected officials condemning Trump and Carlson for their admiration of Putin. Just yesterday I saw a clip of George Stephanopoulis asking an elected Republican why he refused to condemn Trump's praise of Putin and the Republican wouldn't say.

If Trump or anyone else is just saying that Putin is a strong or smart leader, that doesn't mean that they'll agree with every decision the leader makes or that the leader will always be right. You can have one without the other. It's partisan spin (which is typical of mainstream media) to use that to support the claim that Republicans support the Russian invasion.

See above.

EDIT: Kudos to Republican Sen. Mitt Romney, who said on CNN's State of the Union (regarding Republicans who'd previously supported Putin), "Those people are changing their stripes as they're seeing the response of the world and the political response here in the U.S. But how anybody in this country which loves freedom can side with Vladimir Putin, which is an oppressor, a dictator. He kills people. He imprisons his political opponents. He has been an adversary of America at every chance he's had. It's unthinkable to be; it's almost treasonous. It's it's disgusting. And I'm hopeful that you're seeing some of those people recognize just how wrong they were."

More of that please.