Evolution v Creationism: A Dead Issue

[Jose Fly]

As someone who spent a lot of time on the evolution v creationism battles over the last 20 years, I've noticed that in the last 5 years or so the issue seems to have largely gone off the radar. In the message boards that are still around (both Christian and secular) it's barely debated, if at all. Websites specifically dedicated to countering creationist talking points such as talkorigins and pandasthumb have gone silent, seemingly because there just isn't much to talk about.

Surveys have shown that younger Americans accept the reality of evolution at pretty much the same rate as the rest of the developed world. Thanks to national focus on science education by organizations like the NCSE, evolution is more widely taught than ever, even in the deep south. The Discovery Institute (the main "intelligent design" organization) stopped advocating for ID creationism to be taught in schools years ago, and they closed their alleged "research arm" last year.

On the science front, creationism remains as it has for over a century....100% scientifically irrelevant.

So for all practical intents and purposes, this debate is over. There isn't any sort of public debate over teaching creationism, nor is there any real debate about whether evolution should be taught. For sure there's still work to do in some parts of the country (mostly the south and interior west) where even though evolution is officially required, teachers don't teach it either because it's "too controversial" or they don't believe it themselves, but big picture-wise, "evolution v creationism" is in about the same state as "spherical v flat earth"....nothing more than something a handful of people argue about on the internet, but outside of that has little to no significance. And even on that front it's kinda dead....most forums where it's openly debated have a very skewed ratio where there's like 10 "evolutionists" for every 1 creationist.

Glad to see it!

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to alexxcJRO in post #103]

That is way too much to copy and paste from post 103 if anyone wants to follow along.

1. So my question is, are these ESV's functional?

a. If they are functional then how do you know the sections came from a virus. Similar sequencing simply means similar functions and just because they look like ERV's does not mean they were placed there by ERV's. They can simply be a design feature.

Some of these have to be design features. For example The mammalian immune system

Interferon is a protein that signals the ERV in three types of humans cells (K562 myeloid-derived cells, HeLa epithelial-derived cells, and primary CD14+ macrophages) to switch on because there is a virus threat. So which came first the production of the interferon or the ERV that produces proteins that fight the invading virus? Interferon does not fight viruses. How could a nonbeneficial function or ERV stay in the body for millions of years?

b. If they are not functional then why are they still in the genome? Because the genome has a use it or, lose it type function.

2. Evolution has a larger problem to answer and that is the evolution of viruses.

1. Sir please don't bore me with irrelevant nonsense. We are not talking of evolution of the immune system and evolution of viruses we are talking of endogenous retrovirus.

2. There are examples of revival of such viruses:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1665638/

3. The mechanism by which a retrovirus inserts a copy of its RNA genome into the DNA of a host germ cell that it invades which later is transmitted to descendants is well known.
Q: What stops this mechanism from happening? What stops these accumulations to pile on and be transmitted on the descendants line?

4. So God has tricked us evolution has happened. He placed the DNA sequences similar with ERV in the same spots in humans and chimps to show apparent common ancestry. Did the same across all Vertebrate to show apparent common ancestry among species in such a way that we see an apparent tree of life?
Q: For what purpose?
Q: How is it then evolution happening undistinguishable from God doing the magic trick?

[Sherlock Holmes]

4. So God has tricked us evolution has happened.

No, he has not tricked anyone, read the Bible, no mention of evolution there, he certainly has not tricked me; you have tricked yourself, you've been hasty and careless, believing a lie. I know of what I speak, I too once believed and defended this lie.

It's revealed, plainly in the Bible, read:

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

You have no excuse, if you've fallen for a lie then that's a lesson to learn from. Clear your head and open your mind and start afresh, you have nothing to lose, really abandoning the devotion to evolution does not ruin one's life, it will broaden your understanding of science more than you can imagine.

[Difflugia]

You have no excuse, if you've fallen for a lie then that's a lesson to learn from. Clear your head and open your mind and start afresh, you have nothing to lose, really abandoning the devotion to evolution does not ruin one's life, it will broaden your understanding of science more than you can imagine.

Now kick him in the qi and punch him right in the chakras!

[alexxcJRO]

4. So God has tricked us evolution has happened.

No, he has not tricked anyone, read the Bible, no mention of evolution there, he certainly has not tricked me; you have tricked yourself, you've been hasty and careless, believing a lie. I know of what I speak, I too once believed and defended this lie.

It's revealed, plainly in the Bible, read:

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

You have no excuse, if you've fallen for a lie then that's a lesson to learn from. Clear your head and open your mind and start afresh, you have nothing to lose, really abandoning the devotion to evolution does not ruin one's life, it will broaden your understanding of science more than you can imagine.

Q: Sir if God or Satan did not placed the DNA sequences similar with ERV in the same spots in humans and chimps to show apparent common ancestry, did not do it the same across all Vertebrate to show apparent common ancestry among species in such a way that we see an apparent tree of life, so to trick us that evolution did happen why does endogenous retrovirus show common ancestry, that evolution did happen, huh?

[Sherlock Holmes]

4. So God has tricked us evolution has happened.

No, he has not tricked anyone, read the Bible, no mention of evolution there, he certainly has not tricked me; you have tricked yourself, you've been hasty and careless, believing a lie. I know of what I speak, I too once believed and defended this lie.

It's revealed, plainly in the Bible, read:

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

You have no excuse, if you've fallen for a lie then that's a lesson to learn from. Clear your head and open your mind and start afresh, you have nothing to lose, really abandoning the devotion to evolution does not ruin one's life, it will broaden your understanding of science more than you can imagine.

Q: Sir if God or Satan did not placed the DNA sequences similar with ERV in the same spots in humans and chimps to show apparent common ancestry, did not do it the same across all Vertebrate to show apparent common ancestry among species in such a way that we see an apparent tree of life, so to trick us that evolution did happen why does endogenous retrovirus show common ancestry, that evolution did happen, huh?

Gene's equate to function, genes are building blocks, proteins are building blocks, design is all about creating things from building blocks, from standard already designed parts, that's one possible explanation.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to alexxcJRO in post #111]

1. Sir please don't bore me with irrelevant nonsense. We are not talking of evolution of the immune system and evolution of viruses we are talking of endogenous retrovirus.

Wow!!! Wow!!! When you find out what a retrovirus is let me know.

Interferon is a protein that signals the ERV in three types of humans cells (K562 myeloid-derived cells, HeLa epithelial-derived cells, and primary CD14+ macrophages) to switch on because there is a virus threat. So which came first the production of the interferon or the ERV that produces proteins that fight the invading virus? Interferon does not fight viruses. How could a nonbeneficial function or ERV stay in the body for millions of years?

Do you know have answers to the question asked? That is fine I understand if you cannot.

3. The mechanism by which a retrovirus inserts a copy of its RNA genome into the DNA of a host germ cell that it invades which later is transmitted to descendants is well know.
Q: What stops this mechanism from happening? What stops these accumulations to pile on and be transmitted on the descendant's line?

What are you asking? I am not understanding what your argument is. You might have to use a few more words.

4. So God has tricked us evolution has happened. He placed the DNA sequences similar with ERV in the same spots in humans and chimps to show apparent common ancestry. Did the same across all Vertebrates to show apparent common ancestry among species in such a way that we see an apparent tree of life?
Q: For what purpose?
Q: How is it then evolution happening indistinguishable from God doing the magic trick?

I am saying that God made ERV's to give man and other species genetic diversity. Viruses came from these ERV's that mutated because of the fall of man into the dangerous form that they are in today. Naturalism does not have a theory of where viruses came from.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #110]

Exactly. They were placed there when the Universe was created last Thursday.

There is no naturalistic theory of where viruses came from

[Difflugia]

Exactly. They were placed there when the Universe was created last Thursday.

There is no naturalistic theory of where viruses came from

It's funny to me how you are able to squeeze so much wrong into only ten words.

There are no consesus views, but there are a number of competing hypotheses for the origin of viruses, each with evidence in its favor. You have instead implied that the patterns that match ancient viral infection are no more than supernatural caprice. "Maybe Jesus did it" is neither more evidence-driven, nor is it more falsifiable in principle than "everything popped into existence last Thursday."

The icing on the cake, though, is that the presence of ERVs only relates to the origin of viruses in the sense that viruses must have existed for ERVs to actually be ERVs. Since I doubt that your argument is that viruses don't exist, I must assume that you just didn't think through your line of reasoning very carefully before making it.

[alexxcJRO]

Wow!!! Wow!!! When you find out what a retrovirus is let me know.

A retrovirus is a type of virus that inserts a copy of its RNA genome into the DNA of a host cell that it invades, thus changing the genome of that cell.

Do you know have answers to the question asked? That is fine I understand if you cannot.
Interferon is a protein that signals the ERV in three types of humans cells (K562 myeloid-derived cells, HeLa epithelial-derived cells, and primary CD14+ macrophages) to switch on because there is a virus threat. So which came first the production of the interferon or the ERV that produces proteins that fight the invading virus? Interferon does not fight viruses.

These part is irrelevant to our discussion sir.
We are not talking of evolution of viruses, evolution of the immune system.
Let’s not muddle the waters with throwing several things, in a desperate attempt that something might stick.

How could a nonbeneficial function or ERV stay in the body for millions of years?

Q: Why would nonbeneficial, non-functional ERV vanish from the genome once is there?
“Human endogenous retroviruses (HERVs), viral-associated sequences, are normal components of the human genome and account for 8-9% of our genome. These original provirus sequences can be transactivated to produce functional products. Several reactivated HERVs have been implicated in cancers and autoimmune diseases.”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30643113/

What are you asking? I am not understanding what your argument is. You might have to use a few more words.

The mechanism by which a retrovirus inserts a copy of its RNA genome into the DNA of a host germ cell that it invades which later is transmitted to descendants is well known.
Q: What stops this mechanism(retrovirus insertion) from happening? What stops these accumulations to pile on in the genome and be transmitted on the descendant's line? To be used as record of common descent?

I am saying that God made ERV's to give man and other species genetic diversity. Viruses came from these ERV's that mutated because of the fall of man into the dangerous form that they are in today.

1. A bacteriophage, ebola virus, tobacco mosaic virus, adenoviruses came from ERV's.
I think you don’t understand how different these viruses are:

2.The fall of man did not happen sir. That’s a myth.

God creating T rex and every carnivore with teeth and claws for predation while eating vegetation. That really makes no sense.

3. Do you understand you are basically saying God placed these sequences in exact locations in the genome of chimps and humas and across Vertebrae in different configurations which fooled scientists thinking evolution happened and common descent is a thing. He did this with all the genetic evidence of common descent. Why?

Naturalism does not have a theory of where viruses came from.

Difflugia has provided links to information suggesting otherwise.

[alexxcJRO]

Gene's equate to function, genes are building blocks, proteins are building blocks, design is all about creating things from building blocks, from standard already designed parts, that's one possible explanation.

1. The mechanism by which a retrovirus inserts a copy of its RNA genome into the DNA of a host germ cell that it invades which later is transmitted to descendants is well known.
Q: What stops this mechanism from happening? What stops these accumulations to pile on and be transmitted on the descendants line? To be used as record of common descent?

2. Scientists have made revival experiments:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1665638/
3. Reactivation from non-function to function
“Human endogenous retroviruses (HERVs), viral-associated sequences, are normal components of the human genome and account for 8-9% of our genome. These original provirus sequences can be transactivated to produce functional products. Several reactivated HERVs have been implicated in cancers and autoimmune diseases.”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30643113/
4. Do you understand you are basically saying God placed these sequences from pathogens in exact locations in the genome of chimps and humas and across Vertebrae in different configurations which fooled scientists thinking evolution happened and common descent. He did this with all the genetic evidence that show common descent.
This line of reasoning completely ignores point 1.