How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

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The Barbarian
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1031

Post by The Barbarian »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:28 pm What happened here Barbarian? at a loss for words?
We're still waiting to see if you can answer any of the questions you've been dodging.

C'mon. Let's see what you have. Would you like me to remind you of the questions you've been dodging?

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1032

Post by Clownboat »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:51 am You said you were a Christian. So that means what the Bible says should be enough for you to believe
It seems you have made an idol out of the Bible. There are some god concepts that frown on such behavior.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1033

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The Barbarian wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:14 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:28 pm What happened here Barbarian? at a loss for words?
We're still waiting to see if you can answer any of the questions you've been dodging.

C'mon. Let's see what you have. Would you like me to remind you of the questions you've been dodging?
That's presumptuous Barbarian, I do sometimes forget or overlook some questions given my popularity as a debating opponent here, by all means remind me but I'd advise against presuming it was intentional.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1034

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to The Barbarian in post #1031]
We're still waiting to see if you can answer any of the questions you've been dodging.

C'mon. Let's see what you have. Would you like me to remind you of the questions you've been dodging?
I did not ask if you were a Christian. You volunteered that information. I do talk to people who say they are Chrisitan differently than people who say they are not Christian. To be a Christian means you believe what the Bible says. For Christians, the Bible is the Supreme authority of truth. The Christian faith is based on believing a miracle happen, the death and resurrection of the God-man Jesus Christ, which the Bible proclaims. If you do not believe that then you are not a Christian. This is why I have asked you several times whether you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ so that I know what kind of argument to bring to you. If you do not believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then anything in the Bible, for you, is up for revision. Because the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the central theme of the Bible.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1035

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Clownboat in post #1032]
It seems you have made an idol out of the Bible. There are some god concepts that frown on such behavior.
The Bible cannot be an idol because it is the very words of God. John 1:1 "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." To love the Bible is to love God. Psalm 119 the longest chapter in the Bible is about loving the law of God which is the Bible.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1036

Post by The Barbarian »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:08 am [Replying to The Barbarian in post #1031]
We're still waiting to see if you can answer any of the questions you've been dodging.

C'mon. Let's see what you have. Would you like me to remind you of the questions you've been dodging?
I did not ask if you were a Christian. You volunteered that information.
I don't remember saying so, but I suppose my posts made it obvious. I notice that when I asked if you claim to be a Christian, you declined to say.
To be a Christian means you believe what the Bible says. For Christians, the Bible is the Supreme authority of truth.
As you have seen, the Bible itself says that there are other authoritative sources of information about God.
The Christian faith is based on believing a miracle happen, the death and resurrection of the God-man Jesus Christ, which the Bible proclaims.
Here's what Christians believe:
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary, Suffered under Pontius Pilate, Was crucified, dead, and buried. He descended into hell; The third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost; The Holy catholic Church, the Communion of Saints; The Forgiveness of sins; The Resurrection of the body, And the Life everlasting. Amen.

Since about 150 AD, this defined who is a Christian. We do disagree on other things, but this is the definitive statement of faith as taught by the Apostles.

If you do not believe this then you are not a Christian. If you believe the above statement of faith you are a Christian. There was no Bible in those days; the sources of scripture were various and the number and content of books were not defined. There was no Bibolatry then, even if some might have been so inclined.
This is why I have asked you several times whether you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ so that I know what kind of argument to bring to you.
See above. This is what we believe. Do you accept this? The rest is open to interpretation. But not this.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1037

Post by The Barbarian »

The Barbarian wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:14 pm We're still waiting to see if you can answer any of the questions you've been dodging.

C'mon. Let's see what you have. Would you like me to remind you of the questions you've been dodging?
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:56 am That's presumptuous Barbarian, I do sometimes forget or overlook some questions given my popularity as a debating opponent here, by all means remind me but I'd advise against presuming it was intentional.
By the fourth of fifth time you dodged, it was pretty clear why. No point in denial.

But one more chance. You claimed that the evolution of eukaryotes from prokaryotes is falsified. I asked what step in the evolution of eukaryotes (for example endosymbiosis or complex organelles) from prokaryotes is impossible.

So what do you have?

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1038

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The Barbarian wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:09 pm
The Barbarian wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:14 pm We're still waiting to see if you can answer any of the questions you've been dodging.

C'mon. Let's see what you have. Would you like me to remind you of the questions you've been dodging?
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:56 am That's presumptuous Barbarian, I do sometimes forget or overlook some questions given my popularity as a debating opponent here, by all means remind me but I'd advise against presuming it was intentional.
By the fourth of fifth time you dodged, it was pretty clear why. No point in denial.

But one more chance. You claimed that the evolution of eukaryotes from prokaryotes is falsified. I asked what step in the evolution of eukaryotes (for example endosymbiosis or complex organelles) from prokaryotes is impossible.

So what do you have?
Which post of mine are you referring to? there'll be a context, lets see what it was you originally asked and then lets see how I replied, you think I claimed "evolution of eukaryotes from prokaryotes is falsified" I'd like to see what it was I wrote that leads you to think that.

While you're at it you might like to answer this question that you seem to have forgotten about:

"No, I mean things like the veracity of Jesus saving the adulterous woman from stoning for example, is that scripture?"

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1039

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to The Barbarian in post #1036]
Here's what Christians believe:
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary, Suffered under Pontius Pilate, Was crucified, dead, and buried. He descended into hell; The third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost; The Holy catholic Church, the Communion of Saints; The Forgiveness of sins; The Resurrection of the body, And the Life everlasting. Amen.

Since about 150 AD, this defined who is a Christian. We do disagree on other things, but this is the definitive statement of faith as taught by the Apostles.
I am glad that you are saying that you believe in the Apostle's Creed. But it would be a little difficult for Christians in 150 Ad to know it because the Apostle's creed was not penned until 390 AD.
  • "The Apostles' Creed (Latin: Symbolum Apostolorum or Symbolum Apostolicum), sometimes titled the Apostolic Creed or the Symbol of the Apostles, is a Christian creed or "symbol of faith".

    The creed most likely originated in 5th-century Gaul as a development of the Old Roman Symbol, the old Latin creed of the 4th century. It has been in liturgical use in the Latin rite since the 8th century and, by extension, in the various modern branches of Western Christianity, including the modern liturgy and catechesis of the Catholic Church, Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Presbyterianism, Moravianism, Methodism, and Congregational churches."
And yes there was also a Bible the Codex Sinaiticus.
  • Codex Sinaiticus, a 4th-century manuscript of the Septuagint, written between 330 and 350. In 1844, 43 leaves of a 4th-century biblical codex (a collection of single pages bound together along one side) were discovered at St. Catherine's Monastery at the foot of Mount Sinai (hence the name Sinaiticus).
Paul wrote a creed in 1 Corinthians 15:3-5 Maybe this is the one you are thinking of.
  • 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve
So you believe in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus good I am glad to hear that. The problem is, why do you believe that? You do not believe in Genesis when it says that the universe was created in 6 days. You do not believe Moses in Exodus when he wrote that the universe was created in six days. You do not believe Jesus when He said that men were around since the beginning of creation. And you do not believe Paul when he said the same thing.

In the instances above you declare the supremacy of science over the plain reading text. Why in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, you would not choose the supremacy of science over the plain reading of the text. As I have heard many times on this site the resurrection of Christ cannot happen because men do not come back to life after they die.

And you did not say that you believe in the Apostles Creed you just said that a Christian believes in the apostle's creed. And that would be correct we do.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1040

Post by The Barbarian »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:37 pm
The Barbarian wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:09 pm
The Barbarian wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:14 pm We're still waiting to see if you can answer any of the questions you've been dodging.

C'mon. Let's see what you have. Would you like me to remind you of the questions you've been dodging?
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:56 am That's presumptuous Barbarian, I do sometimes forget or overlook some questions given my popularity as a debating opponent here, by all means remind me but I'd advise against presuming it was intentional.
By the fourth of fifth time you dodged, it was pretty clear why. No point in denial.

But one more chance. You claimed that the evolution of eukaryotes from prokaryotes is falsified. I asked what step in the evolution of eukaryotes (for example endosymbiosis or complex organelles) from prokaryotes is impossible.

So what do you have?

Which post of mine are you referring to?
So you dodged it six times now. O.K. I'll be asking again, but we'll just note the fact.
While you're at it you might like to answer
When you stop dodging the questions I asked earlier. Your choice, step up and answer or keep dodging. People notice.

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