How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1041

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The Barbarian wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:09 pm
The Barbarian wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:14 pm We're still waiting to see if you can answer any of the questions you've been dodging.

C'mon. Let's see what you have. Would you like me to remind you of the questions you've been dodging?
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:56 am That's presumptuous Barbarian, I do sometimes forget or overlook some questions given my popularity as a debating opponent here, by all means remind me but I'd advise against presuming it was intentional.
By the fourth of fifth time you dodged, it was pretty clear why. No point in denial.

But one more chance. You claimed that the evolution of eukaryotes from prokaryotes is falsified. I asked what step in the evolution of eukaryotes (for example endosymbiosis or complex organelles) from prokaryotes is impossible.

So what do you have?

Which post of mine are you referring to?
So you dodged it six times now. O.K. I'll be asking again, but we'll just note the fact.
While you're at it you might like to answer
When you stop dodging the questions I asked earlier. Your choice, step up and answer or keep dodging. People notice.
Which post of mine are you referring to? why are you refusing to answer this pretty basic question?

Where do you believe I said "the evolution of eukaryotes from prokaryotes is falsified" ? is it possible you are mistaken?

Perhaps you'd better refresh your memory and get it crystal clear exactly what I said not what you believe I said, to that end, find the post and quote me verbatim, if you're too bone idle to do that then you can't really keep whining that I'm dodging can you.

While you're at it you might like to answer this question that you seem to have forgotten about:

"No, I mean things like the veracity of Jesus saving the adulterous woman from stoning for example, is that scripture?"

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1042

Post by The Barbarian »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:19 pm Perhaps you'd better refresh your memory and get it crystal clear exactly what I said not what you believe I said, to that end, find the post and quote me verbatim, if you're too bone idle to do that then you can't really keep whining that I'm dodging can you.

While you're at it you might like to answer this question that you seem to have forgotten about:


I'm just noting that at least four times when the posts were on the last or penultimate page, you dodged. So that excuse isn't going to fly. We'll just note yet another dodge on your part, and move on.

Since you apparently are now not sure that eukaryotes can't evolve from prokaryotes, that might explain it.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1043

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The Barbarian wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:03 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:19 pm Perhaps you'd better refresh your memory and get it crystal clear exactly what I said not what you believe I said, to that end, find the post and quote me verbatim, if you're too bone idle to do that then you can't really keep whining that I'm dodging can you.

While you're at it you might like to answer this question that you seem to have forgotten about:


I'm just noting that at least four times when the posts were on the last or penultimate page, you dodged. So that excuse isn't going to fly. We'll just note yet another dodge on your part, and move on.

Since you apparently are now not sure that eukaryotes can't evolve from prokaryotes, that might explain it.
Still no proof that I ever wrote "the evolution of eukaryotes from prokaryotes is falsified" why the difficulty finding the post? the facts? the evidence? to backup your accusation?

I'll backup and defend any claim I've ever made - if I actually made it, in this case it really looks like you're imagining things.

Show me the post and I'll defend myself, until then its just bluster, hot air, just like your cartoon image.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1044

Post by The Barbarian »

The Barbarian wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:03 pm I'll backup and defend any claim I've ever made - if I actually made it, in this case it really looks like you're imagining things.

Show me the post and I'll defend myself, until then its just bluster, hot air, just like your cartoon image.
So you're now admitting that there is no reason why eukaryotes can't evolve from prokaryotes? If not, then explain what evidence there is to show that it couldn't happen. Prediction; you'll make another excuse why you can't answer.

So what's it going to be?

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1045

Post by The Barbarian »

To anyone who doesn't accept common descent, we'd like to see how all the evidence in the fossil record, genetics, anatomy and embryology is not valid.

Anyone?

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1046

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The Barbarian wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:03 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:19 pm Perhaps you'd better refresh your memory and get it crystal clear exactly what I said not what you believe I said, to that end, find the post and quote me verbatim, if you're too bone idle to do that then you can't really keep whining that I'm dodging can you.

While you're at it you might like to answer this question that you seem to have forgotten about:


I'm just noting that at least four times when the posts were on the last or penultimate page, you dodged. So that excuse isn't going to fly. We'll just note yet another dodge on your part, and move on.

Since you apparently are now not sure that eukaryotes can't evolve from prokaryotes, that might explain it.
No, it seems its you who's not sure if I said "the evolution of eukaryotes from prokaryotes is falsified" like all the evolution claptrap you peddle, it has no basis in fact.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1047

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The Barbarian wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:35 pm To anyone who doesn't accept common descent, we'd like to see how all the evidence in the fossil record, genetics, anatomy and embryology is not valid.

Anyone?
Who said it (fossil record) wasn't "valid"? I may have said it is discontinuous, I'll also say it is insufficient to prove evolution too.

Let's play a parlor game shall we? are these two related? If you found these fossilized for example would you presume they shared some of their genome? all of it? half of it? none of it perhaps? come on all you evolution experts, lets get some answers please.

ImageImage

State "yes" or "no" and the reasoning behind your answer.
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1048

Post by The Barbarian »

The Barbarian wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:35 pm To anyone who doesn't accept common descent, we'd like to see how all the evidence in the fossil record, genetics, anatomy and embryology is not valid.

Anyone?
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:41 am Who said it wasn't "valid"? I may have said it is discontinuous, I'll also say it is insufficient to prove evolution too.
Real paleonologists, including YE creationists, say you're wrong. Would you like me to show you again?
Let's play a parlor game shall we?
We'd all like you to start answering the questions you're dodging. You've played enough games.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1049

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The Barbarian wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:44 am
The Barbarian wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:35 pm To anyone who doesn't accept common descent, we'd like to see how all the evidence in the fossil record, genetics, anatomy and embryology is not valid.

Anyone?
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:41 am Who said it wasn't "valid"? I may have said it is discontinuous, I'll also say it is insufficient to prove evolution too.
Real paleonologists, including YE creationists, say you're wrong. Would you like me to show you again?
Let's play a parlor game shall we?
We'd all like you to start answering the questions you're dodging. You've played enough games.
Very well, so you won't be playing the game, perhaps afraid to even speculate; anybody else? might one be descended from the other we ask? anybody? surely this is an easy question, we see this kind of thing in evolution books all the time.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1050

Post by The Barbarian »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:41 am are these two related? If you found these fossilized for example would you presume they shared some of their genome? all of it? half of it? none of it perhaps? come on all you evolution experts, lets get some answers please.

ImageImage

State "yes" or "no" and the reasoning behind your answer.
So while we are waiting for you to answer the questions you're dodging, your little game actually is pretty useful.

I'm no expert in anatomy, but...

They both have a skeleton, so they are related to all chordates by a common ancestor. And thereby related to all deuterostomes by a common ancestor. And a backbone so they are related to all vertebrates by a common ancestor.

And the simplified shoulder joints, lack of cervical ribs, what are almost certainly single dentary bones in the lower jaws, differentiated teeth and some other features, indicate that they are both mammals. So do the little "levers" at the back of the feet (both of these animals are digitgrade, so the heel looks like a backwards knee to most people) So related by a common mammalian ancestor.

However, the dental formulae seem to be different in each animal. Too unclear to say for sure. The first has a rather juvenile look in teeth, occipital muscle attachments, and so on. The larger one looks like a canid. The smaller one looks more generalized. It's hard to tell, but it appears the carnassal teeth in the smaller one are "wrong." If these were both adults, that would suggest that they are in different families,orders, or even subclasses. And that (from my inexpert observations and the small images) shows where the last common ancestor would be.

(edit) Since DNA variation in eutherian mammals would show about 85% similarity among orders, I'm supposing that at least 80% similarity, assuming that the smaller skeleton is a marsupial.(edit)

So are you now ready to answer the questions you've been dodging?
Last edited by The Barbarian on Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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