Eternity

[Diogenes]

Is it intellectually dishonest to claim "God has always existed, without beginning and without end;"
yet claim the universe must have had a beginning?

[William]

What does that mean with respect to the real world? Can a "spirit" interact with matter? Can it do work? If it's "not necessarily bound by laws of physics," then by what mechanism does it affect the real world?

Theistically speaking 'spirit' is another word for 'ghost' which is an old expression which sought to describe what we know of in modern terminology as "Consciousness" - something that itself is broadly definable but re the material universe - appears to be a bit of a 'problem'.

[Diogenes]

What does that mean with respect to the real world? Can a "spirit" interact with matter? Can it do work? If it's "not necessarily bound by laws of physics," then by what mechanism does it affect the real world?

Theistically speaking 'spirit' is another word for 'ghost' which is an old expression which sought to describe what we know of in modern terminology as "Consciousness" - something that itself is broadly definable but re the material universe - appears to be a bit of a 'problem'.

"Ghosts." Yes, another word for spirits... and best described by children's cartoons, like "Casper, the Friendly Ghost." Ghosts operate without rules. They can slip through solid walls, yet they can pick up solid objects. They are creations of fantasy, objects for the gullible to indulge in as they defy logic and evidence.

[brunumb]

Ghosts operate without rules. They can slip through solid walls, yet they can pick up solid objects.

And if they are holy enough they can even impregnate sleeping virgins.

[William]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #52]

"Ghosts." Yes, another word for spirits... and best described by children's cartoons, like "Casper, the Friendly Ghost." Ghosts operate without rules. They can slip through solid walls, yet they can pick up solid objects. They are creations of fantasy, objects for the gullible to indulge in as they defy logic and evidence.

I think ghosts - like the devil - have been built upon to create mythology.
Consciousness on the other hand, isn't something which operates without rules, or pick up solid objects, and is a real phenomena rather than a fantasy.

[1213]

By what the Bible tells, God is spirit. Spirit can be something not physical, therefore it is not necessarily bound by laws of physics.

What does that mean with respect to the real world? Can a "spirit" interact with matter? Can it do work? If it's "not necessarily bound by laws of physics," then by what mechanism does it affect the real world?

I believe spirit can interact with matter, but I don’t know how exactly.

So, to believe in universe without beginning, it would mean endless loop that has always existed. Without beginning, everything would go around endlessly. I think it is too unlikely to be true.

That's the crux of the OP question. How could that possibly be true for the universe, but not for a god? It's turtles all the way down.

To believe universe with everlasting change that has no beginning is to me more difficult to believe than God that does not change. And that is because, if universe would be without beginning and be eternal, I think it would mean that it is constant loop and then I would have existed unlimited times in past and this same moment would have happened unlimited times. If things would go by a chance, I think it would be just too improbable to have exact same complex systems to develop on its own unlimited times the same way, without God.

It is not the same with God, because God doesn’t change, at least if we believe what the Bible tells.

[Difflugia]

I believe spirit can interact with matter, but I don’t know how exactly.

Can you at least define what "spirit" is? Your argument is that "God is spirit" and that's somehow important to the discussion, but that you also don't know exactly what that means.

And that is because, if universe would be without beginning and be eternal, I think it would mean that it is constant loop and then I would have existed unlimited times in past and this same moment would have happened unlimited times.

If things would go by a chance, I think it would be just too improbable to have exact same complex systems to develop on its own unlimited times the same way, without God.

You're claiming that your first statement is true by definition, but then claiming that it's "too improbable." If the first statement is true, then the universe is deterministic and randomness is an illusion. If the second is true and randomness is real, why would a universe that is "without beginning" and "eternal" necessarily be perfectly cyclical?

It is not the same with God, because God doesn’t change, at least if we believe what the Bible tells.

If God doesn't change, then what triggered the beginning of the universe? When you say that God "doesn't change," is that different than saying He is in a perfectly steady state?

[JehovahsWitness]

If God doesn't change, then what triggered the beginning of the universe?

FIRSTLY MET ME .BE CLEAR I make no claims here, I am simply presenting the biblical point of view

[ * ] I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. ​I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINKS for details: viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491

Biblically speaking the universe began when God created it. I see no reason (I'm not making a claims that there isnt, only I can see no logical reason) why an intelligent all powerful being cannot (as is wont for intelligent beings) self-generate an idea and make that idea reality.

[Difflugia]

I see no reason (I'm not making a claims that there isnt, only I can see no logical reason) why an intelligent all powerful being cannot (as is wont for intelligent beings) self-generate an idea and make that idea reality.

Fantastic. When you've worked this out for yourself well enough that you're ready to make a claim, support it, and defend it, let us know.

[JehovahsWitness]

I see no reason (I'm not making a claims that there isnt, only I can see no logical reason) why an intelligent all powerful being cannot (as is wont for intelligent beings) self-generate an idea and make that idea reality.

Fantastic. When you've worked this out for yourself well enough that you're ready to make a claim, support it, and defend it, let us know.

Support what? That intelligent beings can self-generate ideas (that is self evident since self-generated idea making is a component of intelligence. For example, I presume you came up with your post alone, ie you self-generated ideas and committed them to script, thus demonstrating the point). If you would like to post why "intelligent beings cannot self-generate ideas" feel free.

That an intelligent omnipotent being (presuming he exists) could* make any self-generated idea a reality is a logical inevitability.

I do not need to make any claims to post intelligent discourse, comment on the Christian tradition and/or answer a question that pertains to the biblical text.

If God doesn't change, then what triggered the beginning of the universe?

ANSWER See post #57 above


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[ * ] I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. ​I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINKS for details: viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491

[William]

[Replying to 1213 in post #55]

I believe spirit can interact with matter, but I don’t know how exactly.

This is my point about "spirit" meaning "consciousness" rather than whatever it is that mythology has made it into.

Consciousness - quite obviously - interacts with matter. It is that interaction which allows for it to be enabled to move matter and shape matter into forms.

...if universe would be without beginning and be eternal, I think it would mean that it is constant loop and then I would have existed unlimited times in past and this same moment would have happened unlimited times.

Again, this idea forgets the ghost in the machine - forgets the abilities and intricacies of all thing to do with consciousness.
Why would you suppose that every manifestation of the conscious universe would create an exact copy of the previous one, when consciousness is doing the shaping?

It is not the same with God, because God doesn’t change, at least if we believe what the Bible tells.

But you have stated that the universe that is in a loop system would not change but repeat itself eternally. How is that different from anything which does not change?

What makes you think that you know the intricacies of God to the degree that you observe no change?
Is it not true that all come from the point of ignorance?

And if that is true, then it must also be true that any understanding one develops of the intricacies has to be seen as "change" - where the object [in this case "God"] - changes in appearance due to the individuals understanding of the intricacies, improving?