One can prove there is no god as described in the Bible from reason alone.
God is, by definition according to Christian theology, perfect, all knowing and all powerful. This god has no needs or desires. 'He' is complete unto himself. He is perfect.
Since he is already perfect any change is a change from perfection.
Therefore God not only had no desire to create 'man,' no need to create man, the creation of any fundamental change to the universe, to existence itself, would constitute a change from perfection. Any change from an absolutely perfect state must be a change from perfection to a lesser state, therefore God did not create man since to do so would imply he was not previously perfect.
That homo sapiens exists is therefore proof there was no preexisting and perfect God.
Ontological Proof There is No God
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Ontological Proof There is No God
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #11This is simply making the assertion, not demonstrating it.Diogenes wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:33 amYes, there is only one 'perfection.' God is it and any deviation therefrom is imperfect. Since perfection is an absolute, there can be only a single manifestation of that perfection.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinio ... /10324629/The Catholic Church has humbly followed the Lord's radical teachings, knowing that it can't improve on the Word of God. The Church has been persecuted throughout the ages, but so was its founder. Jesus Christ is the same ---yesterday, today, and tomorrow, because He is our all-knowing Creator and God who is all-perfect and unchangeable.
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/ ... Unchanging
It does sound a bit goofy, but this is the claim of Christianity. It is not MY claim. It is the position of the Church.
There is a perfect circle. There is also a perfect square.
If a perfect circle turns into a perfect square, it is still perfect and has not ceased to be perfect, yet it has changed.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #12You might not be able to show it, but an obvious bumbler can't get out of his mistakes by saying, "I meant to do that."Kylie wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:04 amThis, to me, implies that God is aiming for some pre-specified outcome, and anything that does not lead to that outcome is a mistake.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:10 pm Perfect, to me, in context, just means doesn't make mistakes.
If God has no such outcome specified, then nothing he does could be classed as a mistake, because how would you show it's a mistake?
A perfect being would never make a mistake.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #13But how could you tell the difference?Purple Knight wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:29 pmYou might not be able to show it, but an obvious bumbler can't get out of his mistakes by saying, "I meant to do that."Kylie wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:04 amThis, to me, implies that God is aiming for some pre-specified outcome, and anything that does not lead to that outcome is a mistake.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:10 pm Perfect, to me, in context, just means doesn't make mistakes.
If God has no such outcome specified, then nothing he does could be classed as a mistake, because how would you show it's a mistake?
A perfect being would never make a mistake.
If some being is doing things, but never tells you in advance what their plan is, and then they say they are finished and everything went completely according to their plan, how do you tell if this being is a perfect being that accomplished exactly what they wanted or if they are a bumbling fool who is just acting like what happened was what they intended all along?
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #14The Christian God has another excuse up his sleeve called Satan, Lucifer, or the Devil. God can avoid the blame for anything by blaming him/it. Of course, one has to question the perfection of a being who would create such a beast. That's when the freewill argument gets played. It's a fairly airtight system if one accepts the numerous unsupported assumptions that girder it.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:29 pmYou might not be able to show it, but an obvious bumbler can't get out of his mistakes by saying, "I meant to do that."Kylie wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:04 amThis, to me, implies that God is aiming for some pre-specified outcome, and anything that does not lead to that outcome is a mistake.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:10 pm Perfect, to me, in context, just means doesn't make mistakes.
If God has no such outcome specified, then nothing he does could be classed as a mistake, because how would you show it's a mistake?
A perfect being would never make a mistake.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #15[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]
Why bother with an ontological proof of no existing God when science has proven God out there at the fringes of the Universe?
Why not argue against existence in general? But then again, arguing against existence and truth should declare a person incompetent because the person would be unable to relate to truth. Reductio ad absurdum?
Good night from Europe
Why bother with an ontological proof of no existing God when science has proven God out there at the fringes of the Universe?
Why not argue against existence in general? But then again, arguing against existence and truth should declare a person incompetent because the person would be unable to relate to truth. Reductio ad absurdum?
Good night from Europe
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #16"... science has proven God out there at the fringes of the Universe?" Can you support this claim? How has science proven God is anywhere? ... fringes or otherwise? Please show us the empirical evidence from a scientific experiment, if you have some.Aetixintro wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:35 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #1]
Why bother with an ontological proof of no existing God when science has proven God out there at the fringes of the Universe?
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #17I might not be able to. I admit that. But I do tend to get the idea when someone always covers for their mistakes by saying they meant to do that. And in the end it doesn't matter if I can tell the difference or not. If it was really a mistake then they're not perfect.
I do question its motivation.
Though I also acknowledge it's hard to say I prefer a world where I can't choose to do wrong. I do think I prefer such a world but I honestly don't know since I haven't lived without what religious people call my "free will" yet. If it's the scenario I imagine of being trapped in my body, but my body always makes good decisions and is praised as moral, heck yes, I choose that. Many people wouldn't want that. I would.
But what I really think is that there is no such thing as free will, and it's all just a convenient contrivance to explain why people aren't perfect.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #18Moderator CommentAetixintro wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:35 pmshould declare a person incompetent because the person would be unable to relate to truth
Please avoid any indirect attacks.
Please review the Rules.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #19I've made similar points, to which I was rebuffed by the below comments:Diogenes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:46 pm One can prove there is no god as described in the Bible from reason alone.
God is, by definition according to Christian theology, perfect, all knowing and all powerful. This god has no needs or desires. 'He' is complete unto himself. He is perfect.
Since he is already perfect any change is a change from perfection.
Therefore God not only had no desire to create 'man,' no need to create man, the creation of any fundamental change to the universe, to existence itself, would constitute a change from perfection. Any change from an absolutely perfect state must be a change from perfection to a lesser state, therefore God did not create man since to do so would imply he was not previously perfect.
That homo sapiens exists is therefore proof there was no preexisting and perfect God.
'God can know everything but chooses not to know everything'
'Why does perfect have to mean as you describe?'
'God can need something and still be undemanding'
And on and on.
The point is, with god (God for those that need to see it with a 'G' ) one can make up any definition they want; use any criteria they want because in reality there's no real god outside with own mind no matter how much they stomp their foot and protest otherwise! And deep down, they know it. They won't admit it, but they know it.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God
Post #20[Replying to Diogenes in post #16]
I know how they do it, least, some 30 years after it took place in England at a radar site for earliest radio-astronomy interpreting the outermost Sloan Wall by radiological signals, one can make this output to a screen and there, "telepathically", communicate with God confirmed by (f)MRI. Good?
Also, the radiological signature is similar to (some) ghosts who we now (and earlier rather) can see directly with proper viewing devices, think Infra-Red devices and such.
There is really no need for religious conviction anymore. God is out there, for sure.
I know how they do it, least, some 30 years after it took place in England at a radar site for earliest radio-astronomy interpreting the outermost Sloan Wall by radiological signals, one can make this output to a screen and there, "telepathically", communicate with God confirmed by (f)MRI. Good?
Also, the radiological signature is similar to (some) ghosts who we now (and earlier rather) can see directly with proper viewing devices, think Infra-Red devices and such.
There is really no need for religious conviction anymore. God is out there, for sure.
I'm cool! - Stronger Religion every day! Also by "mathematical Religion", the eternal forms, God closing the door on corrupt humanity, possibly!