"Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near."
(Rev. 22:10)
If the words of the prophecy weren't to be sealed up because the time was near, why wasn't it near enough for people who had the scroll still unsealed [around 1,900 years ago] to see the prophecy come about? Wouldn't they have expected to?
How near was the time?
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Re: How near was the time?
Post #31You didn't have an argument so far as I could tell. You said I credited the bible, or "prophecy", and I did no such thing. I merely used recent events as an example to help convey what biblical prophecy is. You know, to help folks relate, and think differently. I never said the bible is the reason scientists and other activists call out climate change. Or that the bible predicted climate change. Or anything like that.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 8:55 am Ok. If you don't care to refute my argument that is your good right....but it will debunk or refute your case in the eyes of anyone who cares to read.
And I may be mistaken in thinking you to be a Bible - apologist, Christian or even Theist. I don't keep dossiers on everyone and I'm happy to be corrected.
But the point I made apparently stands - there is no reason at all to credit 'Prophecy", whatever you mean by that, with what is happening today or the best thinking we can come up with.
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Re: How near was the time?
Post #32Another assumption. I'm here to debate Christians in my spare time. Why are you here?
Please read post #23.
You placed your response in a public forum arena.
Post #23.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
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Re: How near was the time?
Post #34Then I leave you with posts #27 and #29, for reference.
Good day
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
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Re: How near was the time?
Post #35I offered a different way to think about what 'near' meant, and, subsequently, what prophecy is (per your ask). If you insist on thinking that prophecy is crystal ball predictions of actual events, and you have no real comment or argument against my suggestion, then there is nothing more to discuss.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 9:03 am [Replying to theophile in post #14The difference between science and prophecy is that science leads us along a trail of evidence to what we can expect to happen while, to qualify as an undeniable prophecy, something has to accurately foretell what we wouldn't expect to happen. A scientific prediction can be tested and clearly observed to be either correct or incorrect. The book of Revelation catalogues numerous specific things happening to specific types of people and to the environment. If those specifics can be generalized to the point that anything going on now can be taken to be their fulfillment, it could be argued that there's no such thing as a false prophecy.Take a modern equivalent for example. All the scientists / activists who have been calling out climate change and the path we're on are no different from the biblical prophets. Would you say that those 'prophecies' are "nothing profound or special"?
So to your juxtaposition of science and prophecy here, sure, that is correct if we assume the basest view of what prophecy is (i.e., crystal ball predictions). But it is an unfair representation of what I am saying, and as such presents no real argument for me to address. (We can absolutely use evidence to confirm prophecy as I've described it, no different from science.)
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Re: How near was the time?
Post #36Prophecy is the same whether it comes from God or one of the prophets. It's still not crystal ball predictions of actual events, nor is there any guarantee that what is prophesized will actually occur. Again, it's more warning and caution than anything else. It's calling out injustice and what's gonna come if Israel (/we) don't change our ways.POI wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 10:15 am I see a false equivalency here, by trying to equate 'Bible prophecy' with 'science'.
The "Bible's" source information is said to be from divine inspiration, (or messages from God). In other words, God gives such 'foreknowledge' to the authors who write about them. Science does not. There exists no 'Big Book of Science' which becomes canonized and seen as final doctrine; via divine foreknowledge from a singular deity. 'Science' uses the scientific method.
Have you read the prophets? It's all about the hell that's gonna come to Israel for forsaking God and sticking to the path Israel is on!
Or what about Genesis 2 even which fits this form? i.e., "If you eat from this tree, you will surely die."
How do you know this? Sounds like you're just declaring yourself right without any backup.
Let's take a look at the previous example for a second. When God told Adam he would surely die if he ate from the tree of knowledge, did Adam actually die? No, he did not. Not for many years at least. So clearly prophecy in the bible is not what you think it is.
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Re: How near was the time?
Post #37I noticed you left 'scientists' out of the equation this time around. I would assume you believe God knows all, and that the 'prophets' are the inspired teachers of God. Assuming you do, then your point here is meaningless. However, if God does not know all, and has to rely upon discovery, or play the wait-and-see-game, like the field of 'science', then why call Him God?theophile wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 1:46 pmProphecy is the same whether it comes from God or one of the prophets.POI wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 10:15 am I see a false equivalency here, by trying to equate 'Bible prophecy' with 'science'.
The "Bible's" source information is said to be from divine inspiration, (or messages from God). In other words, God gives such 'foreknowledge' to the authors who write about them. Science does not. There exists no 'Big Book of Science' which becomes canonized and seen as final doctrine; via divine foreknowledge from a singular deity. 'Science' uses the scientific method.
Does this mean Jesus might not return after all? It might depend on if we get our acts together or not?theophile wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 1:46 pm It's still not crystal ball predictions of actual events, nor is there any guarantee that what is prophesized will actually occur. Again, it's more warning and caution than anything else. It's calling out injustice and what's gonna come if Israel (/we) don't change our ways.
Yes.
When? Is this already a done-deal, and we are just waiting, or is there a chance for a reversal?
Well, this is not any type of prophecy regardless, being that Genesis 2 was written after the so-called legend of 'Adam and Eve'
I'm merely regurgitating Scripture. The Verse below does not state -- "if you are not careful, this will happen" I.E:
"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."
*chuckle*theophile wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 1:46 pm Let's take a look at the previous example for a second. When God told Adam he would surely die if he ate from the tree of knowledge, did Adam actually die? No, he did not. Not for many years at least. So clearly prophecy in the bible is not what you think it is.
Allow me to put on my "apologist's" hat for a moment. Couldn't the Christian argue that a "God day" is not equal to a later invented 'human day'? Maybe God was telling Adam he will now perish, instead of living on...
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: How near was the time?
Post #38[Replying to POI in post #37
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place...." (Rev. 1:1)
Not only that, but there's also this declaration:The Verse below does not state -- "if you are not careful, this will happen" I.E:
"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place...." (Rev. 1:1)
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Re: How near was the time?
Post #39Where do you get your word of God? It can't be from the Bible as that is clearly the work of men.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: How near was the time?
Post #40A) You failed to adequately answer my prior response. Does God know all, or not? Please remember what you stated in post 36. "nor is there any guarantee that what is prophesized will actually occur"Athetotheist wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 5:50 pm [Replying to POI in post #37Not only that, but there's also this declaration:The Verse below does not state -- "if you are not careful, this will happen" I.E:
"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place...." (Rev. 1:1)
B) Is Jesus going to return, or not? If so, when? How much suffrage is sufficient before He comes to reign 'justice'?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."