How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1251

Post by Jose Fly »

DrNoGods wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:24 pm You seem to be assuming that there was only a single mating pair that started the process and no others in the population and their descendants contributed to the population genetics.
And (he's assuming) that each nucleotide difference requires its own, separate mutation.

But then, this is someone who didn't know what an insertion is, so.......yeah.
Last edited by Jose Fly on Fri May 20, 2022 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1252

Post by Eloi »

DrNoGods wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:16 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #1249]
I don't know if they've ever invented a botanical family tree...have they? Just curious.
Of course they have...

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-p ... _304784080

A quick Google search reveals many such diagrams.
Interesting.

And have you ever started to calculate if the total time attributed to the existence of the Universe is enough to produce by chance all these species and genres of animal and plant life that we see today with all its variations?

Let's see, each small detail that we see today would have required many processes and intermediate links (none of which currently exist) for us to have the complete product that we have today. Calculate... each simple little plant or animal, in each and every one of its modern variations that we see... Do you really think that it is enough all the time of the Universe for everything that exists today to have arisen and all in the same little planet?
Last edited by Eloi on Fri May 20, 2022 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1253

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 2:36 pm [Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #1239]

You wrote
Yet those who study such things, who have advanced degrees in the relevant fields, found the data compelling for evolution.
That could be because their studies and educational emphasis and so on plays a part in how they interpret things. The fact is this is interpretation of data, some people think it supports evolution and some don't just as some people thing the universe is evidence for God and some don't. Everything is subjective, everything is down to how we choose to interpret stuff.
Of course.

Some prefer rationality and logic.

Others prefer religious fairy tales.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1254

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Jose Fly in post #1238]
Um....yes, that's what insertions do. You didn't know that?

https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/Insertion
Do, you even read these articles that you say support your claim. Or in this case, all you had to do is look at the pictures.
insertion
"An insertion, as related to genomics, is a type of mutation that involves the addition of one or more nucleotides into a segment of DNA. An insertion can involve the addition of any number of nucleotides, from a single nucleotide to an entire piece of a chromosome." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5120786/
Insertion does not increase the size of the genome. It simply translocates a portion of one chromosome to another.

But that does not even matter. 11 mutations in 30 years gives a mutation rate of 0.4 yr-1 which is about 9 orders of magnitude faster than the accepted mutation rate. This means it would take 9 billion yrs to create that 1st sponge.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1255

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Eloi wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:28 pm ...
And have you ever started to calculate if the total time attributed to the existence of the Universe is enough to produce by chance all these species and genres of animal and plant life that we see today with all its variations?

Let's see, each small detail that we see today would have required many processes and intermediate links (none of which currently exist) for us to have the complete product that we have today. Calculate... each simple little plant or animal, in each and every one of its modern variations that we see... Do you really think that it is enough all the time of the Universe for everything that exists today to have arisen and all in the same little planet?
How bout you do the math, oh ye of novel algorithms.
Last edited by JoeyKnothead on Fri May 20, 2022 3:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1256

Post by Jose Fly »

Eloi wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:28 pm And have you ever started to calculate if the total time attributed to the existence of the Universe is enough to produce by chance all these species and genres of animal and plant life that we see today with all its variations?

Let's see, each small detail that we see today would have required many processes and intermediate links (none of which currently exist) for us to have the complete product that we have today. Calculate... each simple little plant or animal, in each and every one of its modern variations that we see... Do you really think that it is enough all the time of the Universe for everything that exists today to have arisen and all in the same little planet?
Yeah DrNoGods, have you figured out the complete evolutionary history of every species, trait, and genetic sequence that's ever existed?

No? Well then checkmate!! :P
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1257

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:30 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 2:36 pm [Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #1239]

You wrote
Yet those who study such things, who have advanced degrees in the relevant fields, found the data compelling for evolution.
That could be because their studies and educational emphasis and so on plays a part in how they interpret things. The fact is this is interpretation of data, some people think it supports evolution and some don't just as some people thing the universe is evidence for God and some don't. Everything is subjective, everything is down to how we choose to interpret stuff.
Of course.

Some prefer rationality and logic.

Others prefer religious fairy tales.
Indeed and its for that very reason that I remain unconvinced by the various arguments and extrapolations that purportedly show that the fossil record is evidence for evolution, to me they appear as fairy tales. Still one man's fairy tale is another man's truth I suppose.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1258

Post by Jose Fly »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:31 pm Do, you even read these articles that you say support your claim. Or in this case, all you had to do is look at the pictures.
Um...yes. Did you read the AiG articles you linked to and the article I linked to?
Insertion does not increase the size of the genome.
????????? Yes it does. That's literally what an "insertion" does!
It simply translocates a portion of one chromosome to another.
No, that's translocation.
But that does not even matter.
Yes it does. The AiG article you linked to claimed that Lenski's experiment did not document any new mutations. I showed where Lenski specifically did.

AiG is either lying to their readers or are fundamentally ignorant of basic genetics, either of which renders them a completely unreliable and untrustworthy source.
11 mutations in 30 years gives a mutation rate of 0.4 yr-1 which is about 9 orders of magnitude faster than the accepted mutation rate. This means it would take 9 billion yrs to create that 1st sponge.
Again, you're relying on AiG for your numbers even though it's been documented that they are either lying about them or don't understand them.

Also, are you assuming that every single nucleotide requires its own separate mutation?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1259

Post by Eloi »

It is very easy to draw a whole tree, and say this one goes here, and this one goes here... Do you realize that a drawing how you imagine things came to pass does not say anything about they actually ocurred? How long would that imaginary process have taken? of the conditions that would be necessary for it to actually occur? of the conditions that would be necessary? of the evidence that they have to present to show that it really was like that and not in another way?

They are fairytales, the kind that non-believers like, told by those who want to impress them and make them believe that they have a lot of evidence, which in reality they never have .

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1260

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to DrNoGods in post #1250]
You seem to be assuming that there was only a single mating pair that started the process and no others in the population and their descendants contributed to the population genetics.
It doesn't matter. Let all of the billion mutations occur in the same generation across a billion different organisms. That actually only acerbates the problem. The organisms with the mutations need to find each other and then those mutations have to become fixed. That is why the mutation rate is so low. Because of the number of generations, it takes for a mutation to become fixed in a species. The mutation rate is not my number or any creationist number. I am using evolutionist's own numbers. I cannot help it if evolution is not a logically coherent theory.

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