Difflugia wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:16 pm
I think [Paul] knows that what he's saying is confusing, at least in part because he's using very specific definitions that are narrower than even the ones he uses himself.
I appreciate this point, especially because Paul is clearly a rather unique and creative thinker.
But, I do think we run the risk of misinterpreting Paul if we ascribe too many novel definitions to his key terms. At some point we have to stop and ask: Is it really Paul who is using these terms in non-standard ways, or are we just imposing idiosyncratic definitions on Paul in order to accommodate our own interpretation of him?
As already noted above, normally the word
soma refers to a physical entity, and
pneumatikos doesn't refer to something made of spirit or wind, but Tabor nevertheless urges us to see the
soma pneumatikon as some kind of non-physical spirit-body. Likewise, the "resurrection of the dead" in Second Temple Judaism would have typically referred to a return to physical life -- which Tabor elsewhere acknowledges -- but again he urges us to see Paul as arguing for a non-physical resurrection.
All things being equal, it seems to me that we should prefer an interpretation of Paul that doesn't depend so heavily on
ad hoc definitions.
But I agree with you that the context here is important. Let's consider Romans 8 again and what Paul's opponents at Corinth may have believed before returning to Paul's contrasting statements in 1 Cor. 15.
Difflugia wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:16 pm
historia wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 11:10 pm
Paul clearly sees the resurrected body as the same physical body we have now restored to life, which he says explicitly in Romans 8:
Romans 8:10-11 wrote:
But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
I don't think that's referring to the resurrection. Romans chapters 4 through 13 include numerous references to death, life, and rebirth, at least some of which refer to Christians now and are apparently metaphorical. Even in the verses you quoted, 8:10 looks to me to refer to living, mortal Christians, especially when verse 9 is taken into account. Verse 11 could be part of a side analogy relating life in the Spirit now versus after the resurrection, but I think it more reasonably reads as the Spirit giving "Christian" life now to mortal bodies amid the death due to sin. My reading is that 8:1-11 is all one thought, a statement of the present that is a a prologue to 12-30, the statement of the future.
I don't think those are mutually exclusive interpretations.
As part of this "prologue," as you put it, Paul can refer to the body as being (presently) "dead" because it is subject to death and will in the future die. Likewise, he can speak of the body (possibly also presently) "being given life" by the Spirit because it will in the future be made alive again in the resurrection.
That Paul is ultimately thinking here in terms of the resurrection of the dead, though, is indicated by two things, I think:
First, the repeated reference in vs. 11 to him who "raised Jesus from the dead."
And, second, the subsequent reference to our bodies in vs. 23:
Romans 8:18-23 wrote:
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the
redemption of our bodies.
Here, in the "statement of the future," as you put it, Paul is looking forward to the "redemption of our bodies" in the age to come, which I think can only mean the resurrection of the mortal body -- precisely what he was presaging in vs. 11.
Indeed, this and other parts of Paul's writings make it clear that he is looking forward to a restoration of the entire creation (including our mortal bodies), rather than, say, the present creation (including our bodies) being discarded and believers going off to an eternal, non-physical state.
Difflugia wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:16 pm
historia wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 11:10 pm
Tabor wrote:
Some of [Paul's] converts in the city of Corinth were denying the resurrection of the dead. They were most likely thinking along the lines of Plato -- if the immortal soul is freed from the prison of the body at death, why would it ever return to the body?
I think that's exactly right. What do you think?
I think it depends on how Jewish their thinking is. Extrapolating from Paul's arguments, I can see two possibilities.
The first is that the Corinthians that disagree with him don't believe in an afterlife at all as such and have an apocalyptic eschatology in which those that are alive at Christ's
parousia will be granted physical immortality in the realm of the living. Under that scenario, I think Paul's opponents actually have a similar view to the one being claimed for Paul, but that's actually the view that he's arguing
against.
The other possibility is the idea that the
psyche is immortal and transcends death, which sounds like what Tabor is claiming. If that's the case, then that explains Paul's arguments attaching the
psyche to the
sarka in a way that not only makes them both mortal, but argues that both are corrupt.
Either case would make a different sense of Paul's statement that "if in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied." The first case is obvious. If there is no afterlife, then Christians can only have hope in this life. In the second, if the
psyche is freed to pass beyond the heavens at death no matter what, then in Paul's view, Christianity is meaningless. In that case, Paul is arguing that the
psyche is actually corrupt and mortal, but can somehow be replaced with the
pneuma of God to offer immortality.
Your first possibility here strikes me as highly unlikely. The fact that Paul can appeal to the Corinthians' belief in Jesus being raised from the dead and their practice of (proxy) baptizing on behalf of the dead makes the suggestion that Paul's opponent at Corinth didn't believe in any after-life at all for the already deceased rather implausible, in my estimation.
Instead, I think Tabor's view and your second suggestion is more likely: There were some at Corinth who, while undoubtably believing in an after-life, just didn't believe in the resurrection of the body, a position widely shared among Greek and Roman people at the time.
But it seems to me that Tabor's interpretation of 1 Cor. 15 is rather odd in light of this admission.
Tabor recognizes (rightly, I think) that Paul believes in some kind of intermediate state between death and the resurrection -- an idea that was also widely held within Second Temple Judaism, and seemingly reflected in Paul's statement in
2 Cor. 5:8 that he would rather be "away from the body and at home with the Lord."
But, whereas many others in Second Temple Judaism believed that the souls of the dead would again be given a (physical) body in the age to come, Tabor argues that Paul believes the the dead will be given a non-physical 'body' (if one can even call it that) in the age to come, which seems unnecessary and redundant if they are already in a non-physical form during this intermediate state. Tabor even
admits that "the difference between this idea and that of the Greek notion of the immortal soul is difficult to understand."
Here then I think we actually have what you suggested above: Tabor is ascribing to Paul what his opponents believed! Or, at least, Paul's opponents would not fundamentally object to Tabor's view, as it is functionally similar to their own: In the age to come, believers will live on in a non-physical state, and there will be no resurrection of the body, properly speaking. This can't be Paul's position, then.
Okay, back to 1 Cor. 15:
Difflugia wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:16 pm
historia wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 11:10 pm
Paul also sees the mortal body as being transformed in the resurrection, in the same way a seed transforms into a plant
The question here is what kind of transformation Paul has in mind. Does the new plant retain some vestige of the seed, in particular a physical vestige? In the metaphors that Paul presents here, the seed must be sown and it must die that it may gain a new form, but all Paul says about the transformation itself is that "God gives it a body" as He sees fit. Whether that's the same body transformed or a completely new one isn't explicit and I'm inclined to read it as a brand-new body.
A few thoughts here:
First, Paul begins this whole sequence of arguments about the nature of the resurrected body by saying "What you sow does not come to life unless it dies" (vs. 36), which strongly suggests
continuity between the pre- and post-resurrection body. The body that is "sown" is going to "come to life" again in some fashion, rather than being discarded and replaced with a different body altogether.
Second, and in keeping with the first point, Paul's use of
egeiro ("raised") throughout these passages strongly suggests continuity between the two bodies as well, since
egeiro means 'to arouse' or 'to rise' from a seated or sleeping position. That's an odd term to employ here if the resurrected body is not the same one that went 'down' to 'sleep' in the first place.
Third, Paul's subsequent argument in vs. 39-41 -- pointing out that there are different types of bodies and different types of flesh -- seems unnecessary if he's envisioning a non-physical 'container' somehow composed of spirit. Had Paul really thought you became a spirit in the age to come, it seems to me he would have just said that, and not used the term 'body' or 'resurrection' at all.
But, that aside, his argument here, pointing to examples of different types of flesh and different types of bodies -- all of which are, of course, physical -- suggests to me that he sees the resurrected body as physical too. Just as the sun and moon possess different types of (physical) bodies, so too the resurrected body will differ in quality from the current body, while still being physical.
Difflugia wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:16 pm
historia wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 11:10 pm
In the resurrection, the present body will gain new properties:
1 Cor. 15:53 wrote:
For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
Note that Paul says that the mortal, perishable body must "put on" imperishability and immortality, so that these are properties
added to our present bodies. Which is quite different from Tabor's interpretation that the mortal body is essentially discarded in favor of a spirit-body.
Except that's not
exactly what Paul says and the difference is crucial. "Perishable" there isn't an adjective applied to any noun, let alone "body," but a noun itself. I think a more accurate translation is something like this:
Therefore this, the perishable must put on the imperishable and this, the mortal must put on immortality.
I appreciate that clarification. But I think the NRSV and other translations are correct here to interpret "the perishable" as a reference to the current body for precisely the reason you state:
Difflugia wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:16 pm
This in particular makes sense of verse 50, which equates "flesh and blood" with mortality and the ability to be destroyed.
Indeed, here's the quote:
1 Cor. 15:50 wrote:
flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
As some commentators have suggested, I take this to be a bit of classic Hebrew parallelism on Paul's part. The second half of this sentence is essentially a restatement of the first: So, in that way, "the perishable" refers to "flesh and blood" -- that is, the current, mortal body that is corrupted by sin and subject to death.
So when Paul talks about "the perishable"
putting on imperishability, he's referring to something being
added to the current, mortal body rather than the mortal body being discarded and replaced by a completely new body.
Difflugia wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:16 pm
In a broader sense, Paul seems to think of the
psyche as the life-force, the
animus in the Latin sense and its relation to words like "animated" and "animal." . . . [W]henever Paul speaks of the eternal life or the life that Jesus now possesses, it's always
zoe, never
psyche. The spirit gives
zoe.
This brings us to
sarka, "flesh." My understanding of this is that
sarka and
psyche aren't exactly synonyms, but are nonetheless inseparable. The
psyche is the life force of the
sarka. Paul speaks of both
psyche and
sarka in contrast to
pneuma (Romans 7:5-6 and 7:14, for example; note also that
pneumatikos here is placed in contrast to
sarkinos, "composed of flesh"). Even if those aren't direct antonyms, Paul thinks that they properly contrast each other. What I think is important here is that in contrast to contemporary Greek thought, Paul doesn't think that the
psyche is the immortal soul, but is merely the base, animal, animating force of the
sarka. To focus on that is to focus on something that is corrupt and will ultimately perish. The
sarka and its animating
psyche will perish, but the
nous may attach itself to the
pneuma of God to gain everlasting
zoe.
It's funny, here as in so many other parts of your posts, I agree with 95% of what you're saying. But then you seem to take a hard left-turn at the end, which is why I find your interpretation equal parts interesting and perplexing!
To reiterate a point I made last time that seems apropo here: Had Paul described the current body as a
soma sarkinon then I think your interpretation would be
much stronger. For Paul,
sarx carries that negative connotation of flesh that is subject to sin, corruption, and death, often in contrast to spirit.
But he's not talking here about
sarx but rather
soma, a term that has more neutral and sometimes positive connotations for Paul (cf.,
Romans 12:1;
1 Cor. 6:15-20;
2 Cor. 4:10). As we saw above, for Paul, the body is something to be "redeemed" and "changed," not discarded.
At any rate, I think Paul is thinking more in terms of the whole person and not an immortal soul. And I agree that he likely sees the
psyche as the natural, animating life-force, which is why he can refer to the current body as a
soma psychikon, a body
animated by the
psyche. In which case, I would just reiterate that it makes sense then to see the
soma pneumatikon as a body
animated by
pneuma, the Spirit.
Coming back now to your earlier points: Paul can even talk about Adam becoming a living
psyche and Jesus becoming a life-giving
pneuma (v. 45) since it is
psyche and
pneuma that gave/give each life. That doesn't, of course, mean that they are only
psyche or only
pneuma. Adam also had a physical body, of course, and I think Paul sees Christ having a physical (albeit glorified) body as well.
Paul's reference to Adam being "from the earth, a man of dust" and Christ being "from heaven" are where I think your interpretation is the strongest. I just don't think that necessarily entails a physical/non-physical comparison.
Being "from heaven" doesn't mean that the body Christ possess (or that we will possess) is meant for life in heaven. Indeed, Paul's assertion in vs. 50 that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" should not be misread as the assertion that a physical body cannot go to heaven. Rather, the "kingdom of God" here should be understood as the (freed, glorified, yet still physical) creation in the age to come, as in Romans 8. The body corrupted by sin ("flesh and blood") cannot inherit that, but the resurrected (freed, glorified, yet still physical) body can. That body may, like Christ, originate "from heaven," but its destination is the renewed creation.