I have two Italian Greyhounds, here's a picture of them:
Are these animals just lumps of matter or is there something more to them? Is it only people that are not lumps of matter?
Do animals have spirit?
Moderator: Moderators
- Difflugia
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3073
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
- Location: Michigan
- Has thanked: 3324 times
- Been thanked: 2034 times
Re: Do animals have spirit?
Post #61You're right. There's nothing wrong with doing that as long as you acknowledge that's what you're doing. While I might quibble over just how closely Witnesses adhere to the principles they claim to, the larger problem lies in claiming that your peculiar view is synonymous with "biblical."JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:12 pmSo?! Wha's wrong with that? As long as no contextual, lexical or grammatical principles being violated, there is nothing problematic in favoring interpretations that harmonize rather than create artificial conflict.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
- onewithhim
- Savant
- Posts: 9192
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
- Location: Norwich, CT
- Has thanked: 1254 times
- Been thanked: 323 times
Re: Do animals have spirit?
Post #62Well, JWs' view of life as a soul is a truthful claim because there is no place in the Scriptures that teach a "mini me" spirit leaving the body upon death. The spirit that leaves is the breath of life that keeps a person alive....... Jehovah's Spirit by which he animates living things, including animals.Difflugia wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:34 pmYou're right. There's nothing wrong with doing that as long as you acknowledge that's what you're doing. While I might quibble over just how closely Witnesses adhere to the principles they claim to, the larger problem lies in claiming that your peculiar view is synonymous with "biblical."JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:12 pmSo?! Wha's wrong with that? As long as no contextual, lexical or grammatical principles being violated, there is nothing problematic in favoring interpretations that harmonize rather than create artificial conflict.
"There is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit....All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:19,20)
- Difflugia
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3073
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
- Location: Michigan
- Has thanked: 3324 times
- Been thanked: 2034 times
Re: Do animals have spirit?
Post #63The JW view is plausible as long as one has to pretend that different authors must all nevertheless share the same theology.
If one squints just right, anyway. We already discussed Samuel's "mini me" returning to talk to Saul and the "mini me" returning to the dead child in 1 Kings, but if we include the Greek Scriptures, there's also Paul's "mini me" visiting the third heaven:onewithhim wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:34 ambecause there is no place in the Scriptures that teach a "mini me" spirit leaving the body upon death.
If there's no "mini me" that can leave the body, then Paul should know that it can only have been in the body.I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to a the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
If we treat theology like a logic puzzle and play word games, we can come up with harmonizations if we must do so for doctrinal reasons, but the most straightforward solution is that some authors wrote of a soul separable from the body and some didn't.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
- onewithhim
- Savant
- Posts: 9192
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
- Location: Norwich, CT
- Has thanked: 1254 times
- Been thanked: 323 times
Re: Do animals have spirit?
Post #64Samuel's mini-me was a demon pretending to be Samuel.Difflugia wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:20 pmThe JW view is plausible as long as one has to pretend that different authors must all nevertheless share the same theology.
If one squints just right, anyway. We already discussed Samuel's "mini me" returning to talk to Saul and the "mini me" returning to the dead child in 1 Kings, but if we include the Greek Scriptures, there's also Paul's "mini me" visiting the third heaven:onewithhim wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:34 ambecause there is no place in the Scriptures that teach a "mini me" spirit leaving the body upon death.If there's no "mini me" that can leave the body, then Paul should know that it can only have been in the body.I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to a the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
If we treat theology like a logic puzzle and play word games, we can come up with harmonizations if we must do so for doctrinal reasons, but the most straightforward solution is that some authors wrote of a soul separable from the body and some didn't.
The boy in I Kings was brought back to life by the breath of life entering him again....God's Spirit, which causes His will to be done.
The third heaven situation will take some more research. Paul certainly knew that a person's spirit is not a mini-me consciously leaving the body at death.
There must be harmony within the Scriptures. If not, the Scriptures would be worthless.
- Difflugia
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3073
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
- Location: Michigan
- Has thanked: 3324 times
- Been thanked: 2034 times
Re: Do animals have spirit?
Post #65These are exactly the kind of harmonizations that I'm talking about.onewithhim wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:41 pmSamuel's mini-me was a demon pretending to be Samuel.
The boy in I Kings was brought back to life by the breath of life entering him again....God's Spirit, which causes His will to be done.
Good luck. I'm sure you'll eventually figure out exactly how you need to squint.onewithhim wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:41 pmThe third heaven situation will take some more research. Paul certainly knew that a person's spirit is not a mini-me consciously leaving the body at death.
There must be harmony within the Scriptures.
Or at least they have a different kind of value. I don't believe all the the purported health benefits of drinking puerh tea, either, but I still enjoy it.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
-
- Apprentice
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:19 am
- Has thanked: 21 times
- Been thanked: 63 times
Re: Do animals have spirit?
Post #66No, it's quite clear.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:28 amYes. That is what the bible says. The spirit (ruah) is never spoken if as carrying the thoughts and personality of the person after death.Kylie wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:29 pm
So then, just to make sure I've got your position correct, the soul is just the physical body as well as the thoughts. In the analogy, it is the computer and the programs that are running on it. The spirit is nothing more than the electricity that powers it all. Correct?
I just want to make sure that we are on the same page here.
DEATH Biblically at death, a person ceases to exist, with no part of them (the person) surviving.
WHAT HAPPENS TO THE SPIRIT ?
Of course when your computer breaks down, electricity doesn't cease to exist, so the bible speaks of the spirit "returning" to God, as in the energy remains to be used elsewhere. Just as if you unplug your computer the units of energy can now be used to power your toaster or the vaccume cleaner. Or a new computer.
WHAT HAPPEN TO THE SOUL ?
It ceased to exist anywhere. The expression "immortal soul" is nowhere to be found in the bible because souls are physical flesh and blood organisme which can never me immortal.
Is this clear or is it still a little confusing?
So why can't we detect this spirit? We can, after all, detect electricity.
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21251
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 805 times
- Been thanked: 1138 times
- Contact:
Re: Do animals have spirit?
Post #67Good question!
The answer is we can; to detect means to discern something exists. Like a the gravitational pull of an unseen star or planet, testifies to its existence, the observable difference between what is alive and what is not indicates the existence of a yet unquantifiable force which we humans have yet to create. Or to return to our analogy, even if we couldnt measure or understand electricity, obseving what happens when a computer is plugged into a supply source as opposed to a perfectly built computer thatnis not, would be enough for us to discen there is something in the cord attached to the wall that makes the equipment function.
.PSALMS 36:9 - New International Version
For with you is the fountain of life; in your light we see light
The bible indicates this spirit can be thought of as the force of life (See Psalms 36:9) ; while it cannot at present be measured by present scientific means, its presence can be deduced by informed observation.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
-
- Apprentice
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:19 am
- Has thanked: 21 times
- Been thanked: 63 times
Re: Do animals have spirit?
Post #68Seems to me that you are just assuming that this stuff exists, and interpreting what you can see in a way to support it.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:48 amGood question!
The answer is we can; to detect means to discern something exists. Like a the gravitational pull of an unseen star or planet, testifies to its existence, the observable difference between what is alive and what is not indicates the existence of a yet unquantifiable force which we humans have yet to create. Or to return to our analogy, even if we couldnt measure or understand electricity, obseving what happens when a computer is plugged into a supply source as opposed to a perfectly built computer thatnis not, would be enough for us to discen there is something in the cord attached to the wall that makes the equipment function.
.PSALMS 36:9 - New International Version
For with you is the fountain of life; in your light we see light
The bible indicates this spirit can be thought of as the force of life (See Psalms 36:9) ; while it cannot at present be measured by present scientific means, its presence can be deduced by informed observation.
If spirit is to people as electricity is to computers, the spirit is nothing more than the energy we get from the food we eat.
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21251
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 805 times
- Been thanked: 1138 times
- Contact:
Re: Do animals have spirit?
Post #69Kylie wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:06 amSeems to me that you are just assuming that this stuff exists, and interpreting what you can see in a way to support it. ...JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:48 amGood question!
The answer is we can; to detect means to discern something exists. Like a the gravitational pull of an unseen star or planet, testifies to its existence, the observable difference between what is alive and what is not indicates the existence of a yet unquantifiable force which we humans have yet to create. Or to return to our analogy, even if we couldnt measure or understand electricity, obseving what happens when a computer is plugged into a supply source as opposed to a perfectly built computer thatnis not, would be enough for us to discen there is something in the cord attached to the wall that makes the equipment function.
.PSALMS 36:9 - New International Version
For with you is the fountain of life; in your light we see light
The bible indicates this spirit can be thought of as the force of life (See Psalms 36:9) ; while it cannot at present be measured by present scientific means, its presence can be deduced by informed observation.
Some assumptions are so firmly based on observable truths and reliable testimony they can be accepted as truth. This is one of them.
Perhaps if would help to think of the biblical "breath of life" as life itself. What is life? Even if it is hard to define and impossible to measure, do you doubt it exists? Of course not! life is an observable reality expressed through every living thing. The biblical language is a little different but it just names what everyone, atheist or believer, knows exists...LIFE.
The bible just goes one step further by indicating : "we know living things have "life" ... what is the SOURCE of this thing we call "life"?
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21251
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 805 times
- Been thanked: 1138 times
- Contact:
Re: Do animals have spirit?
Post #70INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8