If you were Satan....

[Athetotheist]

I remember a TV preacher once asking his broadcast audience, "If you were Satan....." I don't remember the rest of the question, but I seem to remember that he was talking about prophecy and arguing that Satan was up to some diabolical mischief ("If you were Satan, isn't that what you would do?").

A lot of detail in Christian scripture about what is to happen before Jesus returns is tied to the activity of "Satan". The appearance of the "antichrist", in particular, is supposed to be part of Satan's last gambit before he goes down to utter defeat.

Since it was asked of me how I would react if I were Satan, I think it's fair for me to answer. I know that "Satan" is supposed to be a being of superhuman intelligence, but I can't help thinking that if such a being actually existed and if I were that being, I could do a lot better.

If I were "Satan", I would scrap the antichrist plan. If it's all laid out in the Bible, then everyone knows what to expect and you've lost the element of surprise. With that one simple deviation from the prophetic scenario, the whole thing would be gummed up. No antichrist, no mark of the beast, no abomination of desolation, no anything I was supposed to do as Satan to set the stage for the return of Jesus. And without those prophetic components in place, Jesus couldn't return to fulfill prophecy. And how could anyone stop me? I wouldn't be taking some action which could be prevented; I would be defeating prophecy by not taking action.

So let me pass the preacher's question on to you. If you were "Satan", what would you do----or not do----to thwart prophecy?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #100

1) Perhaps you do not know that even Hardcore christians are not neccesarily sure that all prophecy got fullfilled so far! That gives them no hard time.
There is this thing with a city built by Saddam Hussein in Iraq on a place where biblical prophecy states that there would never be a city again.

2) On the other hand; Emperor Julian Apostata tried to thwart prophecy by rebuilding the jewish temple. It was hindered by an earthquake.

3) Of course there is also this great problem with Jesus personal guarantee that he would return within the lifetimes of some apostles seemingly unfullfilled.
(I am repeating myself here 'cause you ignore my arguments.)

So seemingly some prophecys already failed - But where is Satans mission accomplished.

I don't ignore your arguments; I counter them.

A refusal by "Satan" to fulfill prophecy would nullify prophecy perpetually, nothing more needed.

Furthermore, if the prophecy of Jesus' return has failed already, there's no reason to expect any other Christian prophecy of the end times to be fulfilled. Ever.

[The Nice Centurion]

I don't ignore your arguments; I counter them.

If Ray Comfort were ever preparing to debate Richard Carrier on live TV, he would announce too to counter his nemesis arguments.
THAN Ray would peel a banana, placing the shell on the entrance of the TV studio.
THAN Ray would sit down in the live TV chair intensively praying for Richard to slip on that shell when he arrives and falling so hard that it will make him unable to debate, so Ray can declare the debate a win.

A refusal by "Satan" to fulfill prophecy would nullify prophecy perpetually, nothing more needed.

Furthermore, if the prophecy of Jesus' return has failed already, there's no reason to expect any other Christian prophecy of the end times to be fulfilled. Ever.

1) If you lie one time or several times, does it really logically follow that for sure you will never will speak any truth again?
2) If Satan just does nothing it would be analog to a supervillain just skipping the final fight with his nemesis. Nothing lost, nothing won.
3) Jesus could either patiently wait or create a clone/robotic/magical double of Satan and sending it out to fullfill the prophecys, while posing as Satan. If no one on earth recognices that messianic cheating all's well. Lets call that double "Satan"!

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #102

If Ray Comfort were ever preparing to debate Richard Carrier on live TV, he would announce too to counter his nemesis arguments.
THAN Ray would peel a banana, placing the shell on the entrance of the TV studio.
THAN Ray would sit down in the live TV chair intensively praying for Richard to slip on that shell when he arrives and falling so hard that it will make him unable to debate, so Ray can declare the debate a win.

If there are any banana peels being thrown around here, I don't think they're coming from me.

If you lie one time or several times, does it really logically follow that for sure you will never will speak any truth again?

If a prophecy doesn't come true, it logically follows that it didn't originate in a true source.

If Satan just does nothing it would be analog to a supervillain just skipping the final fight with his nemesis. Nothing lost, nothing won.

False analogy. A supervillain in one of the comic books you rely on so heavily is trying to defeat a superhero, not a prophecy uttered by a superhero.

Jesus could either patiently wait or create a clone/robotic/magical double of Satan and sending it out to fullfill the prophecys, while posing as Satan. If no one on earth recognices that messianic cheating all's well. Lets call that double "Satan"!

Except that you just went and told everybody, so now everybody will know what's going on. Congratulations----you just flubbed the whole thing for Jesus!

The longer you go on, the weaker and sillier your arguments get.

[The Nice Centurion]

If you lie one time or several times, does it really logically follow that for sure you will never will speak any truth again?

If a prophecy doesn't come true, it logically follows that it didn't originate in a true source.

Your opinion. Mainstreaam christianity (and me) doesnt think so.

If Satan just does nothing it would be analog to a supervillain just skipping the final fight with his nemesis. Nothing lost, nothing won.

False analogy. A supervillain in one of the comic books you rely on so heavily is trying to defeat a superhero, not a prophecy uttered by a superhero.

Again; Satan wanting to defeat a prophecy is your presupposation. Mainstream christianity (and me) counts on him wanting to defeat Superjesus at Armageddon.

Jesus could either patiently wait or create a clone/robotic/magical double of Satan and sending it out to fullfill the prophecys, while posing as Satan. If no one on earth recognices that messianic cheating all's well. Lets call that double "Satan"!

Except that you just went and told everybody, so now everybody will know what's going on. Congratulations----you just flubbed the whole thing for Jesus!

The longer you go on, the weaker and sillier your arguments get.

Clarification; I do not debate to win at all costs, so to show that I am brightest - I rather do debate to watch, listen and learn.
I also try to abstain from sillyness intensively.
But since we talk about clones; Do you think that Professor Miles Warren or Arnim Zola or the High Evolutionary from Marvel could clone the abrahimitic god ? If yes they could produce an army of omnipotent beings. If Satan were to get this army under his control and use it in armageddon, he surely would win without thwarted prophecy!(Except his win of course.)

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #104

If a prophecy doesn't come true, it logically follows that it didn't originate in a true source.

Your opinion. Mainstreaam christianity (and me) doesnt think so.

"When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken...." (Deuteronomy 18:22)

That is mainstream Christianity's "opinion".

Satan wanting to defeat a prophecy is your presupposation. Mainstream christianity (and me) counts on him wanting to defeat Superjesus at Armageddon.

Christian theology holds that "Satan" wants to defeat God. The Christian Bible says that "Satan" knows he can't win by fighting, but you haven't convincingly answered the question of why he couldn't win by not fighting.

Do you think that Professor Miles Warren or Arnim Zola or the High Evolutionary from Marvel could clone the abrahimitic god ? If yes they could produce an army of omnipotent beings. If Satan were to get this army under his control and use it in armageddon, he surely would win without thwarted prophecy!(Except his win of course.)

No, I don't think that they could do so. Why? Because they're comic book characters. If "Satan" is supposed to be real, your question about what comic book characters could do is a pointless distraction which indicates that you know more about comic books than you do about theology.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #104

If a prophecy doesn't come true, it logically follows that it didn't originate in a true source.

Your opinion. Mainstreaam christianity (and me) doesnt think so.

"When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken...." (Deuteronomy 18:22)

That is mainstream Christianity's "opinion".

No, thats the bibles opinion.
Mainstream christianity is master in pick'n choose and in ignoring whatever bible texts they want.
Mainstream christianity even states that the KJV is infallible, and where the hebraic and greek originals diverge, them are lousy.
And thats in america, where the bible is at least still read. Europes mainstream christianity does not even read the bible, or where it does everything is taken methaphorically.
So, what I stated about christian mainstream stands.

Satan wanting to defeat a prophecy is your presupposation. Mainstream christianity (and me) counts on him wanting to defeat Superjesus at Armageddon.

Christian theology holds that "Satan" wants to defeat God. The Christian Bible says that "Satan" knows he can't win by fighting, but you haven't convincingly answered the question of why he couldn't win by not fighting.

I do not intend to convincingly answer the question, 'cause I do not state that you are wrong. I am just not convinced you are right. I am showing that there are other possibilitys amass, and I am showing the problems that come with SOUP theory.

Do you think that Professor Miles Warren or Arnim Zola or the High Evolutionary from Marvel could clone the abrahimitic god ? If yes they could produce an army of omnipotent beings. If Satan were to get this army under his control and use it in armageddon, he surely would win without thwarted prophecy!(Except his win of course.)

No, I don't think that they could do so. Why? Because they're comic book characters. If "Satan" is supposed to be real, your question about what comic book characters could do is a pointless distraction which indicates that you know more about comic books than you do about theology.

You present your theory, I present some of mine.
Unlike you, though, I do not claim to have found the Holy Grail strategy for Satans triumph.

The DC Universe interchanged with the Marvel Universe amass. So why shouldnt the Marvel Universe interchange with the Bible Universe?

If you say; "But the latter is real!" you will contradict yourself, for you made this thread for disproving Satan and than the whole Bible Universe.

Further cloning isnt restricted to Marvel, but already a respected Real Universe science, and cloning a god is a good possibility. The Abrahamitic god is said to have mans features and body. Christian fundamentalists even debate on the internet the size of their gods penis . . .

Omnipotent god clones would be really something if they could be controlled. In the MU Arnim Zola could contact Evil Industrialist Justin Hammer to design him some Anti Omnipotence Helmets which restrict the clones omnipotence to subdue themselves to Arnim Zola and later to Satan.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #106

No, thats the bibles opinion.
Mainstream christianity is master in pick'n choose and in ignoring whatever bi le texts they want.
Mainstream christianity even states that the KJV is infallible, and where the hebraic and greek originals diverge, them are lousy.
And thats in america, where the bible is at least still read. Europes mainstream christianity does not even read the bible, or where it does everything is taken methaphorically.
So, what I stated about christian mainstream stands.

Then if, as you say, you go along with mainstream Christianity, it's fair to assume that you are also into pick'n choose and ignoring whatever you want to.

I am showing the problems that come with SOUP theory.

You have offered absolutely no compelling argument against my proposed scenario.

The DC Universe interchanged with the Marvel Universe amass. So why shouldnt the Marvel Universe interchange with the Bible Universe?

Because the Bible wasn't written to be read as a comic book (and don't cop out by asking again how I know that; we've been through it already).

If you say; "But the latter is real!" you will contradict yourself, for you made this thread for disproving Satan and than the whole Bible Universe.

At no point have I argued that the latter was real, so that straw man doesn't stand.

Further cloning isnt restricted to Marvel, but already a respected Real Universe science, and cloning a god is a good possibility. The Abrahamitic god is said to have mans features and body.

No, that's the Bible's opinion (sound familiar?).

How much of God's bodily material is available to geneticists for cloning? You seem to have a real problem drawing a hard line between fantasy and Real Universe science.

I will gently remind you again that the topic of my thread is, "If you were Satan" and not, "Dude......wouldn't it be cool if Satan was a Marvel character??"

[William]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #1]

If I were "Satan", I would scrap the antichrist plan. If it's all laid out in the Bible, then everyone knows what to expect and you've lost the element of surprise.

Where and in what way have these plans been laid out in the bible, that 'everyone knows what to expect'?

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to William in post #108]

Mostly, but not only, in revelation. The text is very open to exegetic, though. So different denominations have different knowings what to expect. Their endtime scenarios differ a lot.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #106

No, thats the bibles opinion.
Mainstream christianity is master in pick'n choose and in ignoring whatever bi le texts they want.
Mainstream christianity even states that the KJV is infallible, and where the hebraic and greek originals diverge, them are lousy.
And thats in america, where the bible is at least still read. Europes mainstream christianity does not even read the bible, or where it does everything is taken methaphorically.
So, what I stated about christian mainstream stands.

Then if, as you say, you go along with mainstream Christianity, it's fair to assume that you are also into pick'n choose and ignoring whatever you want to.

If you want to follow a book full of self contradictions, you are forced to pick'n choose. If you want, if only for the sake of argument, to take something from christianity as true, you normally have to deign to exegetic pick'n choose! Or how else is one to argue?

I am showing the problems that come with SOUP theory.

You have offered absolutely no compelling argument against my proposed scenario.

How many times more and with which words have I to lay out before you that I am just showing you that there are alternative scenarios too, and that your scenario comes with some problems.

The DC Universe interchanged with the Marvel Universe amass. So why shouldnt the Marvel Universe interchange with the Bible Universe?

Because the Bible wasn't written to be read as a comic book (and don't cop out by asking again how I know that; we've been through it already).

If you say; "But the latter is real!" you will contradict yourself, for you made this thread for disproving Satan and than the whole Bible Universe.

At no point have I argued that the latter was real, so that straw man doesn't stand.

You didnt argue that! I wrote: "IF you say . . .". So your accusing me of strawman is a strawman. Not the Scarecrow that fights Iron man, nor the Scarecrow that fights Batman, though!

Further cloning isnt restricted to Marvel, but already a respected Real Universe science, and cloning a god is a good possibility. The Abrahamitic god is said to have mans features and body.

No, that's the Bible's opinion (sound familiar?).

How much of God's bodily material is available to geneticists for cloning? You seem to have a real problem drawing a hard line between fantasy and Real Universe science.

I will gently remind you again that the topic of my thread is, "If you were Satan" and not, "Dude......wouldn't it be cool if Satan was a Marvel character??"

It would be cool from you to make such a thread!
But you have to take into account that Satan is already clarified as a Marvel character in the prominent series "Daimon Hellstrom Son of Satan".
It might not be the same biblical demon, though.