If you were Satan....

[Athetotheist]

I remember a TV preacher once asking his broadcast audience, "If you were Satan....." I don't remember the rest of the question, but I seem to remember that he was talking about prophecy and arguing that Satan was up to some diabolical mischief ("If you were Satan, isn't that what you would do?").

A lot of detail in Christian scripture about what is to happen before Jesus returns is tied to the activity of "Satan". The appearance of the "antichrist", in particular, is supposed to be part of Satan's last gambit before he goes down to utter defeat.

Since it was asked of me how I would react if I were Satan, I think it's fair for me to answer. I know that "Satan" is supposed to be a being of superhuman intelligence, but I can't help thinking that if such a being actually existed and if I were that being, I could do a lot better.

If I were "Satan", I would scrap the antichrist plan. If it's all laid out in the Bible, then everyone knows what to expect and you've lost the element of surprise. With that one simple deviation from the prophetic scenario, the whole thing would be gummed up. No antichrist, no mark of the beast, no abomination of desolation, no anything I was supposed to do as Satan to set the stage for the return of Jesus. And without those prophetic components in place, Jesus couldn't return to fulfill prophecy. And how could anyone stop me? I wouldn't be taking some action which could be prevented; I would be defeating prophecy by not taking action.

So let me pass the preacher's question on to you. If you were "Satan", what would you do----or not do----to thwart prophecy?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to William in post #229

Are you forgetting that in order to give the money, the giver has to be signed into the system?

The homeless person doesn't.

The move toward a cashless society will mean the homeless will have to find the means to make market transactions, and that would involved a signature - just the same as it did before they became homeless.
Your argument appears to be straw-clutching at best - the system involves all who dwell under the shadow of its wings - even the minority homeless.

I'll ask again----Does the system involve Christians who use their signature? If it does, then you're drawing no distinction between those who belong to the antichrist and those who don't. If it doesn't, a mere signature doesn't qualify as the beast's mark.

Show me a whole country operating on barter, and I will acknowledge that country as being evidence that the absent-by-choice-antichrist you portray, likely rules that land.
Show me a whole world which operates on giving rather than selling, and your case will be proved that this antichrist did indeed make the choice not to do what was expected, and Jesus cannot return as a consequence.

The world doesn't have to operate on barter in order for "Satan" to nullify prophecy. If he made no further move and left things as they are now, prophecy would remain neatly unfulfilled.

And how does one go about calculating? Which coding should we use for the task? How did you reach the conclusion that "Nero Caesar=666"?

"Preterist theologians typically support the interpretation that 666 is the numerical equivalent of the name and title Nero Caesar (Roman Emperor 54–68 AD). Written in Aramaic, this can be valued at 666 using the Hebrew numerology of gematria, and was used to secretly speak against the emperor."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_beast

He would have been the most likely candidate in the 1st century.

[William]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #231]

Does the system involve Christians who use their signature?

Of course.

If it does, then you're drawing no distinction between those who belong to the antichrist and those who don't.

I see no reason why those calling themselves "Christians" need be counted as "those who don't".
I am reminded of discussing this idea with Jehovah's Witnesses near 40 years ago - who disagreed with my assessment re the signature - and I realized the reason why they disagreed was because it went against the beliefs they have that they do not engage with the system of the antichrist - at least not to the point where they are 'owned' by it.

Biblically, it is noted that not all who call themselves followers of Jesus, are.

I don't draw the distinction. I simply follow the clues and the Signature System fits the bill re The Mark of The Beast - specifically "The Beast" being "Humanity" in general.

The world doesn't have to operate on barter in order for "Satan" to nullify prophecy. If he made no further move and left things as they are now, prophecy would remain neatly unfulfilled.

The expression you use is clearly a form of prophecy in itself. Since you also use the word "if" you do not appear all that convinced that Satan is sitting back and you are also implying things will get better even if we continue to use the Signature System - something we also should expect if Satan is sitting back...that things would improve...

And how does one go about calculating? Which coding should we use for the task? How did you reach the conclusion that "Nero Caesar=666"?

"Preterist theologians typically support the interpretation that 666 is the numerical equivalent of the name and title Nero Caesar (Roman Emperor 54–68 AD). Written in Aramaic, this can be valued at 666 using the Hebrew numerology of gematria, and was used to secretly speak against the emperor."

From the same link;

The Classical Greek word charagma (χάραγμα), translated as mark (of the beast) in Revelation 13:16 can also mean any mark engraved, imprinted, or branded; stamped money, document, or coin.

which is what I wrote in my last post, saying;

Cash itself is signed off on.

Coin showing Nero distributing charity to a citizen,

[Tcg]

[Replying to William in post #229

Are you forgetting that in order to give the money, the giver has to be signed into the system?

The homeless person doesn't.

Homeless aren't the only ones. Years ago, my pre-teen son wanted to take surfing lessons after winter ended. I could have of course simply given him the money, but I wanted him to learn that if he worked hard, he could achieve his goal. I recommended that he offer to snow shovel our neighbors drives and walkways for cash. He did so and managed to save more than enough to pay for the lessons.

This kind of thing still happens. Last summer a young couple went around offering to cut lawns. A few neighbors took them up on it and they made some cash. A similar thing happened this summer, but the offer was to clean leaves out of gutters. More cash was exchanged.

Beyond this, the idea that one's personal signature could be the Mark of the Beast makes no sense at least if one is claiming it matches the claims of Revelation 13. The Mark is to be taken on either the right hand or the forehead. Why would one sign either. Additionally, a signature is the mark of one's own ID so to speak. The Mark of the Beast is the ID of the Beast, the same Mark for all. It is simply an indication that you follow the Beast. Take it and you indicate that you follow the Beast. Refuse and you indicate your opposition. It most likely is nothing more technologically advanced than a tattoo.

It only takes two verses to support this:

Rev. 13:16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Tcg

[William]

Meantime, a Personal Signature does the trick.

Aside from a Personal Signature, there isn't anything I can think of which would fit the script.
If it is a tattoo of some sort and everyone who accepts, has the same tattoo, it would act in the same way a Personal Signature currently acts - as in - grants access to the marketplace...

Questions re that;

Q: If Satan is sitting back - can he still achieve what was prophesied or...

Q: ...Would Satan have to relinquish the prophesized power part along with the prophesized prestige part?

The reason I ask is because, while the OP is focused on Satan thwarting Father YWHW [and Son] by not going along with the prophecy, there may still be parts Satan can accomplish without having to play the role totally.

Q: Behind the scenes, what would Satan be planning, and...

Q: ...is there any evidence we know of in today's world which might infer deviousness behind those scenes?

Because, if there is - [or it could be] - then Humans could effectively be tricked into thinking that - because prophesy is not happening the way folk separately interpret the prophecy should happen - that there is no Satan or Father YHWH [and Son] and go along never suspecting that they were serving Satan.

Q: Can Satan deceive the world and thwart prophesy at the same time?
Q: Is Satan more intelligent than Humans?

_________________ But wait! There's more! _________________

All this speculation about Satan thwarting Father YHWH assumes that Satan is more intelligent than Father YHWH.
Those whom assume such are basically showing the allegiance of their will to worship Satan's intelligence.
Perhaps that is the Mark of The Beast.
[Loyalty or commitment to a superior or to a group or cause.]

[An attitude of the individuals mind which is altogether shared by millions of like-minded $itizens.]

To think that Satan can outsmart the Elder - The Father YHWH - is a fallacy in relation to biblical narrative.
That is to say,
IF one has to go outside of biblical narrative whilst arguing against biblical narrative
THEN one is ignoring biblical narrative on the one hand whilst on the other holding ones interpretation of it up as the interpretation to assume.

Such muddies the waters for all except those who have already noticed what is beneath the surface...

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to William in post #232

Biblically, it is noted that not all who call themselves followers of Jesus, are.

I was referring to those who are.

Since you also use the word "if" you do not appear all that convinced that Satan is sitting back and you are also implying things will get better even if we continue to use the Signature System - something we also should expect if Satan is sitting back...that things would improve...

As I have mentioned----and indicated with quotation marks----indeed I am not convinced that "Satan" is sitting back, because I am not convinced that "Satan" exists. And if "Satan" does not exist and is not, therefore, the cause of things being bad, we shouldn't expect things to necessarily get better just because of his absence.

[William]

William: Biblically, it is noted that not all who call themselves followers of Jesus, are.
[Replying to Athetotheist in post #235]

I was referring to those who are.

Refer to them with supporting evidence that they even exist. So far as I have seen in all my years on this planet, it has never been established what the 'true' followers are from the 'false' followers. I am keenly interested in that information so please share if you have it.

William: Since you also use the word "if" you do not appear all that convinced that Satan is sitting back and you are also implying things will get better even if we continue to use the Signature System - something we also should expect if Satan is sitting back...that things would improve...

As I have mentioned----and indicated with quotation marks----indeed I am not convinced that "Satan" is sitting back, because I am not convinced that "Satan" exists. And if "Satan" does not exist and is not, therefore, the cause of things being bad, we shouldn't expect things to necessarily get better just because of his absence.

So you are among those who may be tricked into thinking that because prophesy isn't happening, Father YHWH [and Son] and Satan et al, 'don't really exist'.

[see my last post and questions, re that idea].

Hopefully your intent re the OP was not stimulated by some type of need to gloat on how easy it might be for Satan to be able to thwart Father YHWH and that you can entertain the idea that there might just be a Satan who can - if not outsmart The Father - still can easily outsmart Humans who worship that sort of carry-on.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to William in post #234

Aside from a Personal Signature, there isn't anything I can think of which would fit the script.
If it is a tattoo of some sort and everyone who accepts, has the same tattoo, it would act in the same way a Personal Signature currently acts - as in - grants access to the marketplace...

But the same tattoo wouldn't be a personal signature, so a personal signature doesn't fit the script.

All this speculation about Satan thwarting Father YHWH assumes that Satan is more intelligent than Father YHWH.
Those whom assume such are basically showing the allegiance of their will to worship Satan's intelligence.
Perhaps that is the Mark of The Beast.
[Loyalty or commitment to a superior or to a group or cause.]

What's being assumed here is that if "Satan" existed, he would be intelligent enough to realize that simply not doing what prophecy says he's going to do would invalidate said prophecy. Instead of a "self-fulfilling prophecy", it would be turned into the opposite----a self-defeating prophecy.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to William in post #236

I was referring to those who are.

Refer to them with supporting evidence that they even exist.

I was assuming that you were evidence that they exist.

Hopefully your intent re the OP was not stimulated by some type of need to gloat on how easy it might be for Satan to be able to thwart Father YHWH and that you can entertain the idea that there might just be a Satan who can - if not outsmart The Father - still can easily outsmart Humans who worship that sort of carry-on.

Again, the intent was to suggest that, given how easy it would be to invalidate prophecy, the "Satan" story doesn't hold up----a thought which seems to scare some Christians more than the thought that it does.

[William]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #237]

What's being assumed here is that if "Satan" existed, he would be intelligent enough to realize that simply not doing what prophecy says he's going to do would invalidate said prophecy.

That is why the questions;
Q: If Satan is sitting back - can he still achieve what was prophesied or...

Q: ...Would Satan have to relinquish the prophesized power part along with the prophesized prestige part?

Instead of a "self-fulfilling prophecy", it would be turned into the opposite----a self-defeating prophecy.

What makes you think that Satan has any interest in defeating his self? By invalidating his self in order to invalidate a prophesy, sounds unrealistic.
To effectively become a nobody - one of the crowd - even less than that, because Famous humans exist - it goes against the very character as portrayed in the biblical script.

You have provided no particular convincing reason as to why the Satan character would wish to melt into obscurity. "To thwart the plans of Father YHWH" and have to go quietly into the night in order to do so, is unconvincing as nobody would even realize that Satan had achieved such a thing, because he would have to remain anonymous.

It would all be just a non-event which may even quickly be forgotten if things go as bad as science has scientists predicting things are going...

Even so, it may not be enough to stop Father YHWH from sending Son back, if indeed things got that bad...and Father YHWH saw some value in keeping human beings from self-destructing...if things went that way.

As I mentioned in a previous post, something may have occurred which meant the order [for the Son to return] was not given in an epoch where such an event wouldn't have been seen as an Extraterrestrial Intervention by human beings.
Since that opportunity has passed, the reason for not giving the order may have been because something happened which convinced Father YHWH that Humans would survive without an intervention and therefore Satan's roleplay was not required anymore.

That is just as relevant an explanation as the one you are arguing for as to why this biblical prophecy has not unfolded ...

eta;
Do you have answers to the questions I asked?

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to William in post #232]
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