Do you understand those on the other side?

[Jose Fly]

As I've pointed out many times (probably too many times), I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian environment. I was taught young-earth creationism from an early age, was told prayer and reading the Bible were the answer to most of life's problems and questions, and witnessed all sorts of "interesting" things such as speaking in tongues, faith healing, end times predictions, etc.

Yet despite being completely immersed in this culture, I can't recall a time in my life when I ever believed any of it. However, unlike some of my peers at the time I didn't really find it boring. In fact, I found a lot of it to be rather fascinating because.....very little of it made any sense to me. I just could not understand the people, their beliefs, their way of thinking, or much of anything that I saw and heard. When I saw them anointing with oil someone who had the flu and later saw the virus spread (of course), I could not understand what they were thinking. When I saw them make all sorts of failed predictions about the Soviet Union and the end times, yet never even acknowledge their errors while continuing to make more predictions, I was baffled. Speaking in tongues was of particular interest to me because it really made no sense to me.

In the years that I've been debating creationists it's the same thing. When I see them say "no transitional fossils" or "no new genetic information" only to ignore examples of those things when they're presented, I can't relate to that way of thinking at all. When I see them demand evidence for things only to ignore it after it's provided, I can't relate. When I see them quote mine a scientific paper and after someone points it out they completely ignore it, I can't relate.

Now to be clear, I think I "understand" some of what's behind these behaviors (i.e., the psychological factors), but what I don't understand is how the people engaging in them seem to be completely oblivious to it all. What goes on in their mind when they demand "show me the evidence", ignore everything that's provided in response, and then come back later and make the same demand all over again? Are they so blinded by the need to maintain their beliefs that they literally block out all memories of it? Again....I just don't get it.

So the point of discussion for this thread is....how about you? For the "evolutionists", can you relate to the creationists' way of thinking and behaviors? For the creationists, are there behaviors from the other side that baffle you, and you just don't understand? Do you look at folks like me and think to yourselves, "I just cannot relate to his way of thinking?"

Or is it just me?

[Jose Fly]

Yes, I often have those thoughts, but mine are typically toward the stereotyped liberal ideology (which may or may not be what defines you). There are many topics in that worldview that I seriously cannot wrap my head around. For example, this is particularly evident in the abortion argument. Science tells us we are talking about a human life, and yet the left has no problem saying one human can decide/determine if another innocent human gets to live or die.

Now, of course I can understand their emotion based argument of how difficult and hard an unplanned pregnancy might be, but to justify such a ‘might makes right’ conclusion is something I cannot relate to.

And it seems to me you are directing your, “I don’t understand them” toward fundamentalist Christians. I agree with almost everything you said regarding how can those Christians believe what they believe when it is shown science/reality contradicts their view.

As I noted above, it's not really that their beliefs that baffle me, it's their behaviors.

I would describe myself as a conservative Catholic Christian, but do not get when so many Christians fall for end time prophesies or think evolution is somehow contrary to Christian belief. Or those Christians who refuse medical help (vaccines/blood transfusions/medicine) as somehow being unethical or immoral.

You are correct. I cannot wrap my head around what drives them. What motivates them in their faith. How do they reconcile the discrepancies.

When it comes to fundamentalist Christians and their lack of critical thinking skills, I have one word.....televangelists.

I do think you might have some misunderstanding however on some of the things you mentioned. For example, you said you witnessed speaking in tongues. Did you think it was fake or set up? Or did you just mean you find those who specifically seek ‘speaking in tongues’ as some kind of magic power to achieve as foolish? To which I would agree. However, I do believe speaking in tongues exists and even has its purposes, but perhaps not what some zealous Christians attribute to it.

What I saw was clearly not anything miraculous. Whether or not it was deliberate faking or just self-delusion, I can't say for sure (although I believe it was the latter).

I also believe in the power of prayer and that yes miracle healings can and do happen, but I would oppose any of those mega church type spiritual revivals where they ask people for money and heal people on stage type of thing. I agree that seems sketch and lends itself to con.

So I think maybe you are relying on specific and extreme beliefs that you don’t buy into, to which I agree, and with good reason. But I also think perhaps you aren’t fully understanding healthy and true understanding of God, where there is no contradiction between God and science. And in fact, the more that science reveals, the more one can come to appreciate the amazing living God.

It has nothing to do with people believing in gods.

So, I guess my point is, perhaps you can’t relate to those you see as ‘the other’ because you don’t fully know what it is they actually believe. Like I said, I am a Christian, but have not found anything in my Christian beliefs that has been demonstrated to be false, but I still believe. If anything, I continue to be amazed at how much the Bible and the Church get right. Current worldview ideologies pale in comparison to the Church’s wisdom and insight.

That's fine.

[Inquirer]

As I noted in the OP, it's behaviors like confidently claiming "X doesn't exist", being shown examples of X, ignoring them, and later repeating "X doesn't exist". Not only is it weird in terms of the level of denial, it's weird in how the person apparently doesn't think anyone else notices.

Yes that is weird, some Christians probably do that but so too do some atheists. Consider how some confidently claiming "Evidence for God doesn't exist", being shown examples of it, ignoring them, and later repeating "Evidence for God doesn't exist".

Not only is it weird in terms of the level of denial, it's weird in how the person apparently doesn't think anyone else notices.

[Jose Fly]

As I noted in the OP, it's behaviors like confidently claiming "X doesn't exist", being shown examples of X, ignoring them, and later repeating "X doesn't exist". Not only is it weird in terms of the level of denial, it's weird in how the person apparently doesn't think anyone else notices.

Yes that is weird, some Christians probably do that but so too do some atheists. Consider how some confidently claiming "Evidence for God doesn't exist", being shown examples of it, ignoring them, and later repeating "Evidence for God doesn't exist".

Not only is it weird in terms of the level of denial, it's weird in how the person apparently doesn't think anyone else notices.

As I keep saying, I've no interest in debating the existence of gods.

[Inquirer]

As I noted in the OP, it's behaviors like confidently claiming "X doesn't exist", being shown examples of X, ignoring them, and later repeating "X doesn't exist". Not only is it weird in terms of the level of denial, it's weird in how the person apparently doesn't think anyone else notices.

Yes that is weird, some Christians probably do that but so too do some atheists. Consider how some confidently claiming "Evidence for God doesn't exist", being shown examples of it, ignoring them, and later repeating "Evidence for God doesn't exist".

Not only is it weird in terms of the level of denial, it's weird in how the person apparently doesn't think anyone else notices.

As I keep saying, I've no interest in debating the existence of gods.

I didn't ask you too, just trying to understand the "other side", atheists who repeatedly deny something exists even when you show it to them.

Now to be clear, I think I "understand" some of what's behind these behaviors (i.e., the psychological factors), but what I don't understand is how the people engaging in them seem to be completely oblivious to it all. What goes on in their mind when they demand "show me the evidence", ignore everything that's provided in response, and then come back later and make the same demand all over again? Are they so blinded by the need to maintain their beliefs that they literally block out all memories of it? Again....I just don't get it.

[Jose Fly]

I didn't ask you too, just trying to understand the "other side", atheists who repeatedly deny something exists even when you show it to them.

I guess that's between you and atheists.

Now to be clear, I think I "understand" some of what's behind these behaviors (i.e., the psychological factors), but what I don't understand is how the people engaging in them seem to be completely oblivious to it all. What goes on in their mind when they demand "show me the evidence", ignore everything that's provided in response, and then come back later and make the same demand all over again? Are they so blinded by the need to maintain their beliefs that they literally block out all memories of it? Again....I just don't get it.

You mean like you with examples of gradualism in the fossil record and preCambrian-Cambrian transitionals. Yes, that sort of thing truly is bizarre to see.

[Inquirer]

I didn't ask you too, just trying to understand the "other side", atheists who repeatedly deny something exists even when you show it to them.

I guess that's between you and atheists.

Now to be clear, I think I "understand" some of what's behind these behaviors (i.e., the psychological factors), but what I don't understand is how the people engaging in them seem to be completely oblivious to it all. What goes on in their mind when they demand "show me the evidence", ignore everything that's provided in response, and then come back later and make the same demand all over again? Are they so blinded by the need to maintain their beliefs that they literally block out all memories of it? Again....I just don't get it.

You mean like you with examples of gradualism in the fossil record and preCambrian-Cambrian transitionals. Yes, that sort of thing truly is bizarre to see.

Not quite no, I mean more like the fact that we can't use the laws of nature to explain the presence of the laws of nature or that determinism cannot have had a deterministic cause, truly bizarre to watch, they'll deny these facts over and over, very odd, like repeatedly struggling to fit a round peg in a square hole, they'll just keep on trying over and over, never quite getting it.

[Jose Fly]

Not quite no, I mean more like the fact that we can't use the laws of nature to explain the presence of the laws of nature or that determinism cannot have had a deterministic cause, truly bizarre to watch, they'll deny these facts over and over, very odd, like repeatedly struggling to fit a round peg in a square hole, they'll just keep on trying over and over, never quite getting it.

Again, debates about the existence of gods are of zero interest to me.

[Inquirer]

Not quite no, I mean more like the fact that we can't use the laws of nature to explain the presence of the laws of nature or that determinism cannot have had a deterministic cause, truly bizarre to watch, they'll deny these facts over and over, very odd, like repeatedly struggling to fit a round peg in a square hole, they'll just keep on trying over and over, never quite getting it.

Again, debates about the existence of gods are of zero interest to me.

Who's debating? I'm just pointing out some of the typical self evident facts of reality and how some atheists will just perpetuate their denial over and over. I'm agreeing with you, people often do strange things when they are fixated on their beliefs.

[Jose Fly]

Who's debating? I'm just pointing out some of the typical self evident facts of reality and how some atheists will just perpetuate their denial over and over. I'm agreeing with you, people often do strange things when they are fixated on their beliefs.

Okay.

[Diogenes]

....
Just the other day I was reading some of my very old (2006) exchanges with a creationist, where she kept insisting that I'd never addressed a page from AiG. No matter how many times I showed that I did (by posting a link to where I did and even reposting my rebuttal), she just kept repeating "You ignored the AiG page I posted". IMO, that's not only bizarre, it's borderline psychotic.

"Our research suggests that there may be a problem of overconfidence getting in the way of learning, because if people think they know a lot, they have minimal motivation to learn more," Light said. "People with more extreme anti-scientific attitudes might first need to learn about their relative ignorance on the issues before being taught specifics of established scientific knowledge."

....
So maybe that's part of what's going on with these folks? They overestimate their own expertise while greatly underestimating their ignorance, so when they're provided papers and other scientific material, they figure they don't even need to look at it because they think they already know more about the subject than just about anyone.
....
I recall a time when our youth pastor was warning us about all the horrible things that Islam teaches its followers, so I asked her if she'd ever read the Quran. Nope. Had she ever spoken with a Muslim? Nope. Had she ever even met a Muslim? Nope. Nevertheless, she fully believed herself to be more knowledgeable about Islam than any Muslim.

It truly is bizarre to behold something like that.

Indeed, and perhaps the worst is how widespread this is, including a former President who is only semi literate, claiming he "has the best words" while his admirers are so deficient they actually believe him... or pretend to.

The stories the original Dunning and Kruger included in their research stunned me. I recall one where the worst student in the professor's class approached him when he received his grade. The student was smiling confidently as he spoke of the "clerical" error about his failing grade. He spoke as if he actually believed and the professor 'knew' he was the top student in the class.
It surprises me, even tho' I've experienced the same thing. After completing my undergraduate work, I taught Intro to Sociology, just one class, one quarter because the head of the dept. was (obviously ) desperate. After the grades came out, a kid (ironically a professor's son) approached me about his grade. He seldom came to class, never did any work and in the one test he took, got the lowest grade in the class. I do not know where such lack of self awareness comes from.

Yes, the behavior is baffling. We had a guy on this subtopic insist you had not referred to Young Earth Creationism in the OP, but only creationism in general. Even when the quote from the OP was specifically pointed out, he continued to insist on the contrary. There is little point in reading, and even less in responding to this kind of behavior; ignorance touted as knowledge.

The other note you hit, that I keep seeing as well, is tribalism. Whether political or religious, or other, each tribe touts themes that make sense to no one, and that even members of the tribe can't defend. They are just naked beliefs, like tattoos or uniforms, they don't really mean anything except to identify on as a member of the tribe.