Data On The Trinity... why is it the Jews never saw a Trinity in the Old Testament?

[Peterlag]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, and that is supporting evidence that the doctrine is unbiblical, which may be why Trinitarians differ, sometimes greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western Church on the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong, and yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

So my question is why is it the Jews never saw a Trinity in the Old Testament?

[Tcg]

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[Replying to Peterlag in post #1]

[The Nice Centurion]

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Jewish people never accepted Jesus or the NT. That is a difference. So how could they reach the understanding of a triune god?

[Peterlag]

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Jewish people never accepted Jesus or the NT. That is a difference. So how could they reach the understanding of a triune god?

My question has nothing to do with the New Testament or the Jews of that time. I'm asking why the Jews of the Old Testament never saw or mentioned anything about a Trinity. Did not any of those great prophets understand?

[Diogenes]

[Replying to Peterlag in post #4]
It's a good question. The 'trinity' as pronounced by some Christians is like a ragged patch thrown hastily on a hole of a sinking boat. How could Christians maintain monotheism while also claiming a man, Jesus of Nazareth, was a god? They couldn't. So they came up with a 'mystery.' It's utter nonsense of course, favored only by tradition, rather than logic or evidence.

The other goofy thing is why 3 gods in one, instead of two? Why split 'god the father' from the "Holy Spirit" or 'the comforter?' The Jews loved numbers. "3" is better number than "2," just like '7' is preferred to '6.' '12' is a good number... also '40.' None of this makes any sense, except for tradition and poetry.

There's another strange thing going on in the Torah, the many names of 'God.'

According to Jewish tradition, the number of divine names that require the scribe's special care is seven: El, Elohim, Adonai, YHWH, Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh, Shaddai, and Tzevaot.

However, Rabbi Jose considered Tzevaot a common name (Soferim 4:1; Yer. R. H. 1:1; Ab. R. N. 34). Rabbi Ishmael held that even Elohim is common (Sanh. 66a). All other names, such as 'Merciful', 'Gracious', and 'Faithful', merely represent attributes that are common also to human beings (Sheb. 35a).

https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispe ... udaism.htm

Some scholars attribute this diversity of names to the murky origins of the Torah, which predate the history of the Jewish people. For example, the Sumerian influence is easily seen in the flood myth which comes from the Epic of Gilgamesh and the inclusion of two distinct and conflicting creation stories in Genesis.

I suppose the real answer may be, "The canon is just collection of books chosen by committee." There are multiple authors, most of them anonymous, across a thousand years or so, collected from different and changing traditions. The craziest thing is trying to attribute all of this to a single, unknown, supernatural entity.

[Peterlag]

Thanks for making me laugh with...

It's a good question. The 'trinity' as pronounced by some Christians is like a ragged patch thrown hastily on a hole of a sinking boat. How could Christians maintain monotheism while also claiming a man, Jesus of Nazareth, was a god? They couldn't. So they came up with a 'mystery.' It's utter nonsense of course, favored only by tradition, rather than logic or evidence.

[theophile]

So my question is why is it the Jews never saw a Trinity in the Old Testament?

Perhaps it's there, but just in different form and without an official name.

See Genesis 1:2 for example. There you have God (elohim), the Holy Spirit, (ruach elohim), and the deep (tehom), all present from the very beginning. The rest of Genesis 1 (which I would argue is a microcosm of the bible) narrates the unfolding interaction of these three towards an end-state that is good.

(Note: I'm not arguing that this is a perfect parallel for classic Trinitarianism - but that it is perhaps a more primordial version of it. In this model, Jesus would essentially be the light that comes forth from the deep following God's call - per John 1.)

[Peterlag]

So my question is why is it the Jews never saw a Trinity in the Old Testament?

Perhaps it's there, but just in different form and without an official name.

See Genesis 1:2 for example. There you have God (elohim), the Holy Spirit, (ruach elohim), and the deep (tehom), all present from the very beginning. The rest of Genesis 1 (which I would argue is a microcosm of the bible) narrates the unfolding interaction of these three towards an end-state that is good.

(Note: I'm not arguing that this is a perfect parallel for classic Trinitarianism - but that it is perhaps a more primordial version of it. In this model, Jesus would essentially be the light that comes forth from the deep following God's call - per John 1.)

I looked at Genesis 1:2 and all I see is the spirit of God moved. I don't see anything else there.

[theophile]

So my question is why is it the Jews never saw a Trinity in the Old Testament?

Perhaps it's there, but just in different form and without an official name.

See Genesis 1:2 for example. There you have God (elohim), the Holy Spirit, (ruach elohim), and the deep (tehom), all present from the very beginning. The rest of Genesis 1 (which I would argue is a microcosm of the bible) narrates the unfolding interaction of these three towards an end-state that is good.

(Note: I'm not arguing that this is a perfect parallel for classic Trinitarianism - but that it is perhaps a more primordial version of it. In this model, Jesus would essentially be the light that comes forth from the deep following God's call - per John 1.)

I looked at Genesis 1:2 and all I see is the spirit of God moved. I don't see anything else there.

In the beginning God (elohim) created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep (tehom), and the Spirit of God (ruach elohim) was hovering over the waters.

Note that 'the deep' / tehom is a clear reference to a sea goddess (Tiamat) from the Enuma Elish, which the original audience would have picked up on. She plays an extremely subtle but also powerful role here that would be remiss of us to ignore. I would say she represents the abyss and all the chaotic matter (/water) that fills it. She's pretty much the womb from which and in which all things of substance come (things like the light, dry land, plants, etc.).

So again, what we have here is a more primordial, purely 'Jewish' trinity, which comes closer to classic Trinitarianism once we make the connection that the light in Genesis 1:3 is Christ. (Christ is essentially the firstborn of God, the Spirit, and the deep.)

[Miles]

.

"The doctrine of the Trinity is one of the most difficult ideas in Christianity, but it's fundamental to Christians because it:

states what Christians believe God is like and who he is ..... [even if what he is like makes no sense---Who said Christianity had to make sense]
plays a central part in Christians' worship of an "unobjectifiable and incomprehensible God"..... [Boy, ain't that the truth.]
emphasises that God is very different from human beings ..... [As if this wasn't already quite apparent]
reflects the ways Christians believe God encounters them ..... [Well, some Christians anyway]
is a central element of Christian identity ..... [For some Christians anyway]
teaches Christians vital truths about relationship and community ..... [Gotta wonder just what vital truths these could be]
reveals that God can be seen only as a spiritual experience whose mystery inspires awe and cannot be understood logically ..... [I don't think it's your god who cannot be understood, but more likely your description of him]


Unpacking the doctrine

The idea that there is One God, who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit means:
There is exactly one God ..... ["Exactly" you say. Okay, let's see]
The Father is God ..... [That's 1]
The Son is God ..... [And that's 2]
The Holy Spirit is God ..... [And this makes 3, which hardly amounts to "exactly" one (1) God. Now does it!]
The Father is not the Son..... [Okay, I can buy this]
The Son is not the Holy Spirit ..... [This too, but it isn't all that meaningful]
The Father is not the Holy Spirit ..... [And this. Don't ya just the love reasonable statements for a change]


An alternate way of explaining it is:

There is exactly one God ..... [Despite previous claims to the contrary]
There are three really distinct Persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ..... [Persons!?! Up above it says they were gods}
Each of the Persons is God ..... [So, each of the gods is god? Isn't this is a tautology?]


Common mistakes

The Trinity is not
Three individuals who together make one God ..... [But you just said "there is One God, who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." What gives]
Three Gods joined together ..... [How can the three not be joined together if God is all three?]
Three properties of God ..... [I guess not. The three are actually "gods" or "persons." Take your pick I guess]"
source

Does it all make sense? Of course it doesn't, which is one reason the Jews never used it. The other reason is that they had no third party, as with Jesus in the case of the Christians, to fill out the third position. A most, the Jews could have concocted a Duality, but to what end?

.