Scientific thinking and common sense

[Eloi]

I have noticed that sometimes people with a scientific mind, people who have studied a lot and know a lot of information about different sciences, do not notice simple things that do not escape the attention of ordinary people, even if they have studied less or almost nothing.

For example, the fact that the animals that evolutionists call "lower" in the evolutionary scale still live alongside humans, and that others supposedly fitter, because they are located in a higher position in the evolutionary line of man, no longer exist.

Evolutionary theory holds that as animals progressed up the evolutionary scale, they became more capable of surviving. Why, then, is the “inferior” ape family still in existence, but not a single one of the presumed intermediate forms, which were supposed to be more advanced in evolution? Today we see chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans, but no “ape-men.” Does it seem likely that every one of the more recent and supposedly more advanced “links” between apelike creatures and modern man should have become extinct, but not the lower apes? https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101985017

To what extent do you think the "wisdom" of this system of things can cloud a person's mind?

[JoeyKnothead]

Understanding comes from God

Understanding of what exactly?

Ya know, stuff. Bible stuff. Like zombie Jesus, and how come the wimmins won't let ya put your feet up on the coffee table.

not from living in a "Christian" family or community.

If that's true, whether or not the Christian environments I grew up in were "helpful" is irrelevant, correct?

If you were a Christian, you'd understand.

Oh, ya were?

Joey spins the wheel of excuses, and it lands on...
You musta not been praying right.

"Ya gotta believe to understand" implies one didn't understand before they set to believing.

[Tcg]

So what do you say to folks who specifically asked God to help them understand, but got nothing?

We also have to wonder why God presumably gives his followers drastically different understand. On the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma section of this forum right now towards the top on the listing, there are three topics that stand out:

- JESUS IS NOT GOD

- Jesus is God

- Jesus is God and Why !

All these threads were created by believers and are filled with believers disagreeing with each other over what you'd think God would want them to understand and yet this topic seems to be a perpetual issue.

Another issue illustrates the problem with the claim that understanding comes from God. Recently, a non-believing poster argued that Hebrews 10:25 "25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." is an exhortation that Christians should attend church. A believer berated this poster for taking such a view and claimed it doesn't teach that. Well, here's the rub, the position the non-believer took is a mainstream Christian teaching. I couldn't count the number of times I've heard sermons supporting this idea. Why didn't God give this understanding to the believer when, if the claim of God gifting understanding is true? He's given that understanding to a great many others apparently.

This also shows the fallacy of claiming non-believers can't understand the Bible. Often non-believers come to the exact same conclusions believers do about what the Bible teaches. Of course, understanding what it teaches and agreeing with what it teaches are very different things, but it is clearly wrong to suggest unbelievers can't understand what the Bible teaches unless of course the non-believers have the same misunderstandings a great many believers do.


Tcg

[Inquirer]

Understanding comes from God, not from living in a "Christian" family or community.

You can't even show your favored god exists, much less could be understood.

Be patient, God will reveal himself to you in his own way in his own time.

[Inquirer]

Revealed spiritual knowledge, for example:

A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

Whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

and this, even the Jews of the day, those who claimed to understand God, those who studied the scripture routinely - did not understand:

Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Understanding includes the acknowledgement to one's self that one has been in error, that one has mis-understood, the beginning of understanding is to grasp that one has misunderstood, until that time one is lost, wandering in a fog and unaware of it.

So God reveals these things through people who then write the revelations into scripture, but the only way anyone can actually understand any of it is if the same God provides a subsequent revelation, on an individual basis.

Is that what you're describing?

The obvious point is, it didn't help you, people can't help you, all understanding comes from God.

So what do you say to folks who specifically asked God to help them understand, but got nothing?

This isn't really a theology thread, go and ask the question in one of the other forum areas, you'll get plenty of helpful replies.

[Inquirer]

So what do you say to folks who specifically asked God to help them understand, but got nothing?

We also have to wonder why God presumably gives his followers drastically different understand. On the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma section of this forum right now towards the top on the listing, there are three topics that stand out:

- JESUS IS NOT GOD

- Jesus is God

- Jesus is God and Why !

All these threads were created by believers and are filled with believers disagreeing with each other over what you'd think God would want them to understand and yet this topic seems to be a perpetual issue.

Another issue illustrates the problem with the claim that understanding comes from God. Recently, a non-believing poster argued that Hebrews 10:25 "25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." is an exhortation that Christians should attend church. A believer berated this poster for taking such a view and claimed it doesn't teach that. Well, here's the rub, the position the non-believer took is a mainstream Christian teaching. I couldn't count the number of times I've heard sermons supporting this idea. Why didn't God give this understanding to the believer when, if the claim of God gifting understanding is true? He's given that understanding to a great many others apparently.

This also shows the fallacy of claiming non-believers can't understand the Bible. Often non-believers come to the exact same conclusions believers do about what the Bible teaches. Of course, understanding what it teaches and agreeing with what it teaches are very different things, but it is clearly wrong to suggest unbelievers can't understand what the Bible teaches unless of course the non-believers have the same misunderstandings a great many believers do.


Tcg

The above is a good example of how people want God to conform to their will. They demand it "make sense" on human physical terms else it is nonsensical. People can't understand it because to understand it one must stop insisting God conform to their image of him, to their model of what God "should" act like. You and many other have formed an image of what a "actual" God would act like and speak like, and if reality differs from that then it is rejected.

Many "believers" don't understand, the Pharisees didn't understand yet insisted they did, their idea of understanding was to persecute then torture then brutally execute Christ. Recall what I just said to Jose:

Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.

That is the very people who had been preserving and revering and dutifully copying God's word for over three thousand years did not understand what was written. I don't claim to understand, all I have is insights here and there, I can see and perceive things I once could not, it is revealed (made comprehensible) a bit at a time:

For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

The Bible itself is telling you that it cannot be understood unless one's mind is opened by Christ, try as we might we cannot fathom or make sense of it without God's help, that is intended, it is a cryptic coded message - it pretty much says so itself.

But, this is not a theological thread, so I won't dwell any further on this here.

[Jose Fly]

So what do you say to folks who specifically asked God to help them understand, but got nothing?

We also have to wonder why God presumably gives his followers drastically different understand. On the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma section of this forum right now towards the top on the listing, there are three topics that stand out:

- JESUS IS NOT GOD

- Jesus is God

- Jesus is God and Why !

All these threads were created by believers and are filled with believers disagreeing with each other over what you'd think God would want them to understand and yet this topic seems to be a perpetual issue.

Another issue illustrates the problem with the claim that understanding comes from God. Recently, a non-believing poster argued that Hebrews 10:25 "25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." is an exhortation that Christians should attend church. A believer berated this poster for taking such a view and claimed it doesn't teach that. Well, here's the rub, the position the non-believer took is a mainstream Christian teaching. I couldn't count the number of times I've heard sermons supporting this idea. Why didn't God give this understanding to the believer when, if the claim of God gifting understanding is true? He's given that understanding to a great many others apparently.

This also shows the fallacy of claiming non-believers can't understand the Bible. Often non-believers come to the exact same conclusions believers do about what the Bible teaches. Of course, understanding what it teaches and agreeing with what it teaches are very different things, but it is clearly wrong to suggest unbelievers can't understand what the Bible teaches unless of course the non-believers have the same misunderstandings a great many believers do.


Tcg

What you describe is something I noticed pretty early on in my life....religion is kind of a "make it up as you go along" exercise with no independent means of verification. If one person says "The Holy Spirit revealed to me that A is the truth" and another says "The Holy Spirit revealed to me that Not A is the truth", religion offers no independent means of determining who's correct. If the differences are significant enough, you end up with a new denomination or even a new religion altogether.

Reminds me of this cartoon....

[Jose Fly]

This isn't really a theology thread, go and ask the question in one of the other forum areas, you'll get plenty of helpful replies.

That's pretty consistent with how this sort of thing went when I was younger. I'd ask questions and eventually the religious person would make up an excuse to walk away.

I'm not a Christian for two primary reasons. First, I have a number of issues and questions about its overall framework. Second, when I pose my issues and questions to Christians (including Christian leaders), they either give meaningless responses (e.g., "ask God", "have faith", "pray about it") or do whatever they can to avoid it all.

From my POV, that's not what one expects from a group of people claiming to have "the truth".

[Inquirer]

So what do you say to folks who specifically asked God to help them understand, but got nothing?

We also have to wonder why God presumably gives his followers drastically different understand. On the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma section of this forum right now towards the top on the listing, there are three topics that stand out:

- JESUS IS NOT GOD

- Jesus is God

- Jesus is God and Why !

All these threads were created by believers and are filled with believers disagreeing with each other over what you'd think God would want them to understand and yet this topic seems to be a perpetual issue.

Another issue illustrates the problem with the claim that understanding comes from God. Recently, a non-believing poster argued that Hebrews 10:25 "25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." is an exhortation that Christians should attend church. A believer berated this poster for taking such a view and claimed it doesn't teach that. Well, here's the rub, the position the non-believer took is a mainstream Christian teaching. I couldn't count the number of times I've heard sermons supporting this idea. Why didn't God give this understanding to the believer when, if the claim of God gifting understanding is true? He's given that understanding to a great many others apparently.

This also shows the fallacy of claiming non-believers can't understand the Bible. Often non-believers come to the exact same conclusions believers do about what the Bible teaches. Of course, understanding what it teaches and agreeing with what it teaches are very different things, but it is clearly wrong to suggest unbelievers can't understand what the Bible teaches unless of course the non-believers have the same misunderstandings a great many believers do.


Tcg

What you describe is something I noticed pretty early on in my life....religion is kind of a "make it up as you go along" exercise with no independent means of verification. If one person says "The Holy Spirit revealed to me that A is the truth" and another says "The Holy Spirit revealed to me that Not A is the truth", religion offers no independent means of determining who's correct. If the differences are significant enough, you end up with a new denomination or even a new religion altogether.

Reminds me of this cartoon....

I do not belong to "a church", I do not abide by a "statement of beliefs", I do not espouse my beliefs unless asked, I do not proselytize, I do not judge others' beliefs, I do not attend "services". The apostles did not agree eye to eye, so why expect the rest of us to?

Most modern Christian denominations are just like the Pharisees, they burden their members with rules, regulations, schedules and so on.

A good example of Christian mindset is the Quakers.

But, this is not a theological thread, so I won't dwell any further on this here.

[Inquirer]

This isn't really a theology thread, go and ask the question in one of the other forum areas, you'll get plenty of helpful replies.

That's pretty consistent with how this sort of thing went when I was younger. I'd ask questions and eventually the religious person would make up an excuse to walk away.

I'm not a Christian for two primary reasons. First, I have a number of issues and questions about its overall framework. Second, when I pose my issues and questions to Christians (including Christian leaders), they either give meaningless responses (e.g., "ask God", "have faith", "pray about it") or do whatever they can to avoid it all.

From my POV, that's not what one expects from a group of people claiming to have "the truth".

I am happy to discuss any aspect of this but don't want to be accused of derailing, just start a thread with your position and questions in this section, I and I'm sure many others will soon expand it into a vocal discussion!

Personally I often have more in common intellectually with atheists, philosophers and atheist scientists than hard-core Christians, that is those tied to this or that denomination or church.

[Tcg]

This isn't really a theology thread, go and ask the question in one of the other forum areas, you'll get plenty of helpful replies.

That's pretty consistent with how this sort of thing went when I was younger. I'd ask questions and eventually the religious person would make up an excuse to walk away.

I'm not a Christian for two primary reasons. First, I have a number of issues and questions about its overall framework. Second, when I pose my issues and questions to Christians (including Christian leaders), they either give meaningless responses (e.g., "ask God", "have faith", "pray about it") or do whatever they can to avoid it all.

From my POV, that's not what one expects from a group of people claiming to have "the truth".

This reminds me of a time many years ago when I asked a fellow believer about a specific issue I had with the story of the Great Flood. The man listened politely, but when I was finished explaining it, he simply replied, "You can ask God about it when we get to heaven." He didn't realize that I was wondering if there were any reason to accept the Bible's claims about God. If there weren't, there'd be no reason to expect I'd be asking any questions of God at least not the flood sending one.

As I've looked back on that conversation and others like it, it seems to me that it's advice on how to maintain faith and obviously not a path to finding truth. Kinda like, oh don't worry about those troubling issues that have no resolution, just keep your eyes on heaven. I just couldn't do that. I couldn't believe what didn't make sense. Plenty of people are though. Very odd.

ETA: Oh, and oddly enough, God never gave me any understanding that resolved the issue I had with the tale of the Ark. I must have prayed wrong or something.

Tcg