Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

[POI]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

[Clownboat]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

It is my position after many years pondering this subject myself, that one cannot discover God, find God, prove God to other people. Only God can cause us to become aware of God. God reveals knowledge including knowledge that God exists, has mind and so on.

It is fruitless to ask questions like "show me evidence" because we innately have no way of understanding what evidence for God is, until God wants you to understand you will not understand.

It is written:

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

We cannot know God, cannot perceive the reality of God on our own, only God can reveal himself to us and that often happens slowly, painfully, one must undergo a change of mindset, and we cannot do so of ourselves.

All knowledge of God is revealed knowledge, one can look here and look there for evidence but it is fruitless, God is unlike anything we deal with in our fleshly lives and so seeking God on fleshly, material terms is doomed to fail.

Sounds to me like one must convince oneself that there not only is a god, but a specific god. Sounds like you are just making excuses as for why we don't see any evidence for any of the gods.

Readers, ask youself... how would Inquirer, or anyone for that matter know that we cannot know a god or that only a god can reveal himself to us? These are clearly unknowns said as if the person feels like they have knowledge about the gods that they could not have.

I can't know for sure, but the excuses all sounds delusional and made up to me.

[Clownboat]

...
Record scratch... This doesn't mention a single continent and certainly not one that floats on water. You've read that into the text.

These show that there was single area of dry land that was stretched above water.

God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters he called Seas. God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:10
before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
Proverbs 8:26-27
To him that stretched out the earth above the waters:"
Psalms 136:6

What exactly does "when he drew a circle on the face of the deep" mean?
How about "stretched out the earth above the waters"?

They mean whatever a persons imagination wants them to mean in order to maintain the belief in the book where said claims are made. That is my experience.

[POI]

...
Gen. 1:10 states god will call the dry land 'earth', and the wet area 'sea'. There is nothing profound or prolific in this passage at all. ...

It shows there was one continent, one area of dry land and one area that was called the sea. How do you think humans would have known that before modern "science"?

It does no such thing. The passage is vague, without specifics. As TCG has already explained, you are reading WAY more into this text, verses what is actually there to read. I would imagine that if God wanted to convey to His readers that such land was once one land mass, God would have bothered to spell it out, at least a little bit.... But He apparently did not such thing. He instead presented a tautology -- (via redefining descriptions into singular words).

I ask again, is this the best example you have?

[Inquirer]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

It is my position after many years pondering this subject myself, that one cannot discover God, find God, prove God to other people. Only God can cause us to become aware of God. God reveals knowledge including knowledge that God exists, has mind and so on.

It is fruitless to ask questions like "show me evidence" because we innately have no way of understanding what evidence for God is, until God wants you to understand you will not understand.

It is written:

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

We cannot know God, cannot perceive the reality of God on our own, only God can reveal himself to us and that often happens slowly, painfully, one must undergo a change of mindset, and we cannot do so of ourselves.

All knowledge of God is revealed knowledge, one can look here and look there for evidence but it is fruitless, God is unlike anything we deal with in our fleshly lives and so seeking God on fleshly, material terms is doomed to fail.

It has meen my experience that Theists make one line claims and the atheist side have to write 250 words to refute it. I do that myself. It's not often I find a long post that is an inflated way of saying "I have no evidence".

What claim did I make? what are you referring to? What is evidence anyway, have you never asked yourself that question? All "evidence" is interpreted relative to some defined model or viewpoint.

Change the viewpoint and what was evidence for X suddenly becomes evidence for Y. It's not evidence you seek, it is a viewpoint from which to interpret evidence, choose that viewpoint carefully.

[TRANSPONDER]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

It is my position after many years pondering this subject myself, that one cannot discover God, find God, prove God to other people. Only God can cause us to become aware of God. God reveals knowledge including knowledge that God exists, has mind and so on.

It is fruitless to ask questions like "show me evidence" because we innately have no way of understanding what evidence for God is, until God wants you to understand you will not understand.

It is written:

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

We cannot know God, cannot perceive the reality of God on our own, only God can reveal himself to us and that often happens slowly, painfully, one must undergo a change of mindset, and we cannot do so of ourselves.

All knowledge of God is revealed knowledge, one can look here and look there for evidence but it is fruitless, God is unlike anything we deal with in our fleshly lives and so seeking God on fleshly, material terms is doomed to fail.

It has meen my experience that Theists make one line claims and the atheist side have to write 250 words to refute it. I do that myself. It's not often I find a long post that is an inflated way of saying "I have no evidence".

What claim did I make? what are you referring to? What is evidence anyway, have you never asked yourself that question? All "evidence" is interpreted relative to some defined model or viewpoint.

Change the viewpoint and what was evidence for X suddenly becomes evidence for Y. It's not evidence you seek, it is a viewpoint from which to interpret evidence, choose that viewpoint carefully.

Where did I say that you made any claim? I was talking about other claims made by Christians, Theists and Bible -apologists which are very short, but take a lot of words to refute them. In your case, you wrote a load of stuff that added up to Nothing . Essentially you have no evidence or you'd present it.

So you are asking 'what is evidence'? You know what it is - Data, remains, records. Your point really is how do we interpret it? And you imply bias ("Viewpoint"). The Believers cannot understand the 'viewpoint' of science and the rationalist, which is to know what's so, as best we can, like it or not. Not to fiddle the evidence to fit the faith. That we leave to the Bible - apologists.

[Inquirer]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

It is my position after many years pondering this subject myself, that one cannot discover God, find God, prove God to other people. Only God can cause us to become aware of God. God reveals knowledge including knowledge that God exists, has mind and so on.

It is fruitless to ask questions like "show me evidence" because we innately have no way of understanding what evidence for God is, until God wants you to understand you will not understand.

It is written:

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

We cannot know God, cannot perceive the reality of God on our own, only God can reveal himself to us and that often happens slowly, painfully, one must undergo a change of mindset, and we cannot do so of ourselves.

All knowledge of God is revealed knowledge, one can look here and look there for evidence but it is fruitless, God is unlike anything we deal with in our fleshly lives and so seeking God on fleshly, material terms is doomed to fail.

It has meen my experience that Theists make one line claims and the atheist side have to write 250 words to refute it. I do that myself. It's not often I find a long post that is an inflated way of saying "I have no evidence".

What claim did I make? what are you referring to? What is evidence anyway, have you never asked yourself that question? All "evidence" is interpreted relative to some defined model or viewpoint.

Change the viewpoint and what was evidence for X suddenly becomes evidence for Y. It's not evidence you seek, it is a viewpoint from which to interpret evidence, choose that viewpoint carefully.

Where did I say that you made any claim? I was talking about other claims made by Christians, Theists and bible -apologists which are very short, but take a lot of words to refute them.

Very well, but replying to me with "Theists make one line claims and the atheist side have to write 250 words to refute it" did imply - to me - that it was something I'd written.

If you require lots of words to rebut (we can't say refute as that's often a matter of opinion) something, does that not imply its somewhat challenging to rebut?

In your case, you wrote a load of stuff that added up to Nothing .

A blanket dismissal of what I said to you hardly shows that what I wrote was "nothing", if that's an example of a rebuttal it isn't very impressive.

Essentially you have no evidence or you'd present it.

More flawed logic, how can you possibly argue that my refusal to disclose something proves that I do not have anything to disclose?

Please, do feel free to use as many words as you need.

[Tcg]

Atheists and others (a reminder that it isn't only atheists who recognize the many flaws in the Bible, we have a thread around these parts where a Christian theist admits them) have pointed out numerous errors in the Bible. Some of which start out in the very first book of the Bible.

Atheists have shown only bad interpretations and small spelling mistakes in modern Bibles, no real errors in the Bible. And I think it is quite funny how weak atheism must be when it is based on so futile arguments. Would be better, if atheists would just say that they don't want to believe, instead of making silly excuses that ruin their credibility.

As I've corrected many, many times, atheists aren't the only ones who recognize that there are errors, real errors in the Bible. I for one wanted to continuing believing in the Bible when I took to reexamining it deeply. Much to my disappointment I found that it isn't reliable. That's being generous. It is a hot mess. We can't even get past the first chapter without seeing it.

As an aside, it's very poor debating to assume why some folks reach certain conclusions. If you want to know why someone doesn't accept the Bible, you should ask them rather than assigning motives that aren't true. It is also wise to remember that atheists are individuals. We don't all hold the same opinions about the Bible or anything else for that matter. The same is true of Christians, many of which have reached the proper conclusion that the Bible is not inerrant


Tcg

[Tcg]

...
Record scratch... This doesn't mention a single continent and certainly not one that floats on water. You've read that into the text.

These show that there was single area of dry land that was stretched above water.

God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters he called Seas. God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:10
before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
Proverbs 8:26-27
To him that stretched out the earth above the waters:"
Psalms 136:6

Absolutely nothing in these verses state or even hint at a single continent.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

It is my position after many years pondering this subject myself, that one cannot discover God, find God, prove God to other people. Only God can cause us to become aware of God. God reveals knowledge including knowledge that God exists, has mind and so on.

It is fruitless to ask questions like "show me evidence" because we innately have no way of understanding what evidence for God is, until God wants you to understand you will not understand.

It is written:

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

We cannot know God, cannot perceive the reality of God on our own, only God can reveal himself to us and that often happens slowly, painfully, one must undergo a change of mindset, and we cannot do so of ourselves.

All knowledge of God is revealed knowledge, one can look here and look there for evidence but it is fruitless, God is unlike anything we deal with in our fleshly lives and so seeking God on fleshly, material terms is doomed to fail.

It has meen my experience that Theists make one line claims and the atheist side have to write 250 words to refute it. I do that myself. It's not often I find a long post that is an inflated way of saying "I have no evidence".

What claim did I make? what are you referring to? What is evidence anyway, have you never asked yourself that question? All "evidence" is interpreted relative to some defined model or viewpoint.

Change the viewpoint and what was evidence for X suddenly becomes evidence for Y. It's not evidence you seek, it is a viewpoint from which to interpret evidence, choose that viewpoint carefully.

Where did I say that you made any claim? I was talking about other claims made by Christians, Theists and bible -apologists which are very short, but take a lot of words to refute them.

Very well, but replying to me with "Theists make one line claims and the atheist side have to write 250 words to refute it" did imply - to me - that it was something I'd written.

If you require lots of words to rebut (we can't say refute as that's often a matter of opinion) something, does that not imply its somewhat challenging to rebut?

In your case, you wrote a load of stuff that added up to Nothing .

A blanket dismissal of what I said to you hardly shows that what I wrote was "nothing", if that's an example of a rebuttal it isn't very impressive.

Essentially you have no evidence or you'd present it.

More flawed logic, how can you possibly argue that my refusal to disclose something proves that I do not have anything to disclose?

Please, do feel free to use as many words as you need.

I won't need too many. At least after I refute or rebut (show it's false anyway) the above: "If you require lots of words to rebut (we can't say refute as that's often a matter of opinion) something, does that not imply its somewhat challenging to rebut?" Possibly but not because it made a good case, for example, it is easy to post 'The Bible is a reliable record'. It would be easy to just post "No,it isn't." but of course that invites a challenge. posting the reasons why the Bible cannot be taken as reliable may take (as I said) 250 words. But not because it's a challenge beyond having to know the rebuttal to make the rebuttal, but that doesn't mean it's a good argument the theist made. In fact, it's merely a faith -claim.

Now I've spent some time on that (you deserved a full response). And there it is, I do challenge - 'where's your evidence?' You have none, or you'd present it instead of tap dancing around,trying to pull rhetorical tricks and trying to fiddle epistemology so that not presenting evidence somehow means that you have evidence but aren't in the mood to present it, even though a debate is going on.

One line will do to debunk you.

cue...loads of evidence. Cut and paste from apologetics sites, post Christian apologetics videos, links to religious propaganda websites. Easy to do. But I guess there is a reason you prefer to post stuff that isn't evidence at all. I can't read your mind, but I can read evidence - you have some problem why you prefer to post evasions. I can only guess. Arguing evidence invites a response; posting evasions will get a challenge.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
Record scratch... This doesn't mention a single continent and certainly not one that floats on water. You've read that into the text.

These show that there was single area of dry land that was stretched above water.

God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters he called Seas. God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:10
before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
Proverbs 8:26-27
To him that stretched out the earth above the waters:"
Psalms 136:6

Absolutely nothing in these verses state or even hint at a single continent.


Tcg

The scenario is fairly clear and Babylonian myth give the picture anyway, the primordial waters (Tiamat in Mesopotamian mythology) were separated into the ones below and the ones above. The passage here shows god scibing a circle on the waters below and the land appeared. A circular flat earth by the read of it. Not a globe. Not a sphere, not the hint of one. Sure the apologists can wangle it to fit a round earth (except the Hebrew refutes that) which (even without the geology) will not look very probable for the well -worked over ocean beneath the surface.

The thing is that it is a tacit admission that Science is right - the Bible has to be wangled to agree with it. None really try to argue for a flat earth and a sun made later than the earth. It has to be wangled to fit geology and cosmology. There are limits to Creationist science -denial, and that is the point where people start to laugh.