Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

[POI]

For many atheists, the go-to topic for debate, is "divine hiddenness". I do not see it spoke about much here? I figured it would be worthy of discussion. Below is a theist's response/rebuttal to the argument:



For Debate:

1. In claim #1, the theist states Abraham, Joseph, and Jesus have their requests ultimately fulfilled at a later date. Why do countless victims of rape, torture, AND murder go unfulfilled in their requests to be saved?

2. In claim #2, the theist states hiddenness does seem to promote a relationship in the long run. This is clearly not the case, as many will die as atheists -- (likely me, unless He is going to reveal Himself to me later in a way for which I will not doubt His mere existence).

3. In claim #3, God remains hidden from the ones who would rebel. I guess this means if I never feel I received His presence, then that means I would have rebelled anyways? Well then, should I ignore the Bible, where He presented Himself to many who reject Him then?

I'll stop here... The theist mentions other stuff, but nothing seemingly worthy of intellectual discussion.

I hope you theists can come up with BETTER reasons than the ones given in the video?

Or, in conclusion, apply Occam's Razor for the following question: Why doesn't God intervene, when prayed upon, where ultimate finite tragedy strikes?

A): Because God does not exist... One assumption

OR

B): God does exist, but.... Commence additional assumptions

******************************

A) needs only one assumption, B) needs more....

[TRANSPONDER]

I've been looking for the dust to setle and it seems it's the problem of evil again, isn't it? "Why doesn't God clean this mess up?"

I don't know whether it's a Solid case, but it is an effective one. From Greek (or even earlier times (ecclesiastes) philosophers to today, and with any god, not just Biblegod, why doesn't a god (or gods) with poweers and (so their priests claim) morals, do something

As it said in the vid I posted recetly the doubter will ask "I could do better than this". Either god is not good, or it has no power.

Atheists do not say that any god is evil, the absence of an effective god is, no god. Logically valid if not solid case.

Theist frankly can do no better than field excuses. I won't weary your ears with them but one favourite snivelling excuse is punishing kids when they do wrong. The atheist short and snappy answer is, 'you put your kids on the naughty step; you do not lock them in the basement and torture them to death".

"I could do better than this."

[POI]

...
1. In claim #1, the theist states Abraham, Joseph, and Jesus have their requests ultimately fulfilled at a later date. Why do countless victims of rape, torture, AND murder go unfulfilled in their requests to be saved?
...

Why you assume their request is unfulfilled? Is this just hypothetical question, or can you show examples of cases with unfulfilled requests?

Because many die in rape, torture, and murder, while pleading with God to save them. If any of them, or their Christian families, prayed for them to be spared from murder, and they instead died in anguish, then the answer is either:

A): God does not exist... One assumption

OR

B): God does exist, but.... Commence additional assumptions

******************************

A) needs only one assumption, B) needs more....

Further, I find your question baffling. The entire point of this exercise, is to explore the ultimate hypothetical... Meaning, does God really exist or not? You assume He does, but must issue many additional assumptions to justify His existence AND actions -- (or lack there-of). The burden of proof is placed upon you, to demonstrate He exists. A person of doubt, like myself, can merely use Occam's Razor to assess why God seems to skip over so much revelation/tragedy/other, if one is also to assume that God intervenes. The unbeliever merely needs one assumption, God does not exist.

[POI]

I've been looking for the dust to setle and it seems it's the problem of evil again, isn't it? "Why doesn't God clean this mess up?"

I don't know whether it's a Solid case, but it is an effective one. From Greek (or even earlier times (ecclesiastes) philosophers to today, and with any god, not just Biblegod, why doesn't a god (or gods) with poweers and (so their priests claim) morals, do something

As it said in the vid I posted recetly the doubter will ask "I could do better than this". Either god is not good, or it has no power.

Atheists do not say that any god is evil, the absence of an effective god is, no god. Logically valid if not solid case.

Theist frankly can do no better than field excuses. I won't weary your ears with them but one favourite snivelling excuse is punishing kids when they do wrong. The atheist short and snappy answer is, 'you put your kids on the naughty step; you do not lock them in the basement and torture them to death".

"I could do better than this."

I'm still on the fence, as to whether this is the (be-all-end-all / go-to) argument for atheists, or not? Does this topic dip into the 'problem of evil' argument? It likely does a little bit... BUT, I would say it expands beyond that argument. Case/point... The line of questioning I posed to "Miles":

- Do you believe in the Christian God? (yes or no)
- Can your God manifest in reality, if He wants to? (yes or no)
- Does your God know what would convince me that He exists? (yes or no)
- Is your God capable of doing such convincing? (yes or no)

Why hasn't it happened for me? You can refer to one of the answers in the video, or select one of your own.

Ultimately, if you select (no) in the first question, you do not bare the burden of attempting to justify the rest, with more assumption(s) . - Occam's Razor...

The point being, that the Christian God is said to interact with His creation. So does He?

[1213]

Because many die in rape, torture, and murder, while pleading with God to save them. If any of them, or their Christian families, prayed for them to be spared from murder, and they instead died in anguish, then the answer is either:...

In Biblical point of view this life is not all. This is only like the Matrix, virtual reality where people can experience also evil. The goal is eternal life with God. How do you know those who died were not saved to eternal life with God?

[TRANSPONDER]

I've been looking for the dust to setle and it seems it's the problem of evil again, isn't it? "Why doesn't God clean this mess up?"

I don't know whether it's a Solid case, but it is an effective one. From Greek (or even earlier times (ecclesiastes) philosophers to today, and with any god, not just Biblegod, why doesn't a god (or gods) with poweers and (so their priests claim) morals, do something

As it said in the vid I posted recetly the doubter will ask "I could do better than this". Either god is not good, or it has no power.

Atheists do not say that any god is evil, the absence of an effective god is, no god. Logically valid if not solid case.

Theist frankly can do no better than field excuses. I won't weary your ears with them but one favourite snivelling excuse is punishing kids when they do wrong. The atheist short and snappy answer is, 'you put your kids on the naughty step; you do not lock them in the basement and torture them to death".

"I could do better than this."

I'm still on the fence, as to whether this is the (be-all-end-all / go-to) argument for atheists, or not? Does this topic dip into the 'problem of evil' argument? It likely does a little bit... BUT, I would say it expands beyond that argument. Case/point... The line of questioning I posed to "Miles":

- Do you believe in the Christian God? (yes or no)
- Can your God manifest in reality, if He wants to? (yes or no)
- Does your God know what would convince me that He exists? (yes or no)
- Is your God capable of doing such convincing? (yes or no)

Why hasn't it happened for me? You can refer to one of the answers in the video, or select one of your own.

Ultimately, if you select (no) in the first question, you do not bare the burden of attempting to justify the rest, with more assumption(s) . - Occam's Razor...

The point being, that the Christian God is said to interact with His creation. So does He?

The problem of evil is really a basic (atheist) argument against a personal (Abrahamic) god. Just as the debunk of ID is the basic (atheist) case against a Creator (religious or not) intervening on earth. These are good and even basic arguments, and where atheism flounders a bit is a Cosmic Mind that just wished Cosmic stuff into existence and flipped the switch on the Big bang. The problem of evil is all about the Abrahamic god, as described in Jewish scripture - not Christian or Islamic, so much. It really is rather funny that Christians argue about OT material so much, when, if it fails, Christianity sinks with it whereas, if it stands up to question, the Chri8stian case still has to be validated (for all that Bible apologists insist that it be taken as true until totally debunked...which is what the debate is really about).

Aside from the appalling acts of the OT which any moral person should recoil from even if they believed it was real, it is a hoot that the NT - argument from evil works by saying the OT stuff no longer applies. Even if they were unaware (as the entire membership of the Christian religion seems to be) that Jesus said that Church attendance was unimportant.

[TRANSPONDER]

Because many die in rape, torture, and murder, while pleading with God to save them. If any of them, or their Christian families, prayed for them to be spared from murder, and they instead died in anguish, then the answer is either:...

In Biblical point of view this life is not all. This is only like the Matrix, virtual reality where people can experience also evil. The goal is eternal life with God. How do you know those who died were not saved to eternal life with God?

That is not a logical question. The Logical question is, how do you know they were? How do you know that Allah did not send them to Hell? How do you know that all souls, including Pagan, Hindu and Atheist are not all living some sorta afterlife, or how do you know that death and dissolution is not the end for all of us? ..I know, you don't need to tell me: you assume that the Christian Dogma must be assumed to be true until 100% disproven (while dismissing all other beliefs out of hand). No. The burden of proof falls upon you as the claimant.

Off you go.

[POI]

Because many die in rape, torture, and murder, while pleading with God to save them. If any of them, or their Christian families, prayed for them to be spared from murder, and they instead died in anguish, then the answer is either:...

In Biblical point of view this life is not all. This is only like the Matrix, virtual reality where people can experience also evil. The goal is eternal life with God. How do you know those who died were not saved to eternal life with God?

You asked if my question for victims of rape, torture, and murder; (asking to be spared from rape, torture, and murder), was hypothetical. These victims, and their families, pray that they be spared from rape, torture, and murder. I'm testing the ULTIMATE hypothetical. What's more likely? The reason such requests go unfulfilled is because:

A): The Biblical God does not exist
B): The Biblical God does exist, but....

If I select A), I need only one assumption to answer the question ----> The Biblical God does not exist

If I select B), I need a minimum of two assumptions, maybe more.

My assumption is there exists no god present to entertain requests.

When applying Occam's Razor, when such hypothetical questions are put forth, the answer which requires the least amount of assumptions, is to be preferred. I guess I do not need to tell you, but option A) needs lesser assumption(s).

Your response merely places forth an untestable and unfalsifiable proposition. Mine is testable, yours is not. Unless you can demonstrate the existence of "Heaven", for starters.

[POI]

I've been looking for the dust to setle and it seems it's the problem of evil again, isn't it? "Why doesn't God clean this mess up?"

I don't know whether it's a Solid case, but it is an effective one. From Greek (or even earlier times (ecclesiastes) philosophers to today, and with any god, not just Biblegod, why doesn't a god (or gods) with poweers and (so their priests claim) morals, do something

As it said in the vid I posted recetly the doubter will ask "I could do better than this". Either god is not good, or it has no power.

Atheists do not say that any god is evil, the absence of an effective god is, no god. Logically valid if not solid case.

Theist frankly can do no better than field excuses. I won't weary your ears with them but one favourite snivelling excuse is punishing kids when they do wrong. The atheist short and snappy answer is, 'you put your kids on the naughty step; you do not lock them in the basement and torture them to death".

"I could do better than this."

I'm still on the fence, as to whether this is the (be-all-end-all / go-to) argument for atheists, or not? Does this topic dip into the 'problem of evil' argument? It likely does a little bit... BUT, I would say it expands beyond that argument. Case/point... The line of questioning I posed to "Miles":

- Do you believe in the Christian God? (yes or no)
- Can your God manifest in reality, if He wants to? (yes or no)
- Does your God know what would convince me that He exists? (yes or no)
- Is your God capable of doing such convincing? (yes or no)

Why hasn't it happened for me? You can refer to one of the answers in the video, or select one of your own.

Ultimately, if you select (no) in the first question, you do not bare the burden of attempting to justify the rest, with more assumption(s) . - Occam's Razor...

The point being, that the Christian God is said to interact with His creation. So does He?

The problem of evil is really a basic (atheist) argument against a personal (Abrahamic) god. Just as the debunk of ID is the basic (atheist) case against a Creator (religious or not) intervening on earth. These are good and even basic arguments, and where atheism flounders a bit is a Cosmic Mind that just wished Cosmic stuff into existence and flipped the switch on the Big bang. The problem of evil is all about the Abrahamic god, as described in Jewish scripture - not Christian or Islamic, so much. It really is rather funny that Christians argue about OT material so much, when, if it fails, Christianity sinks with it whereas, if it stands up to question, the Chri8stian case still has to be validated (for all that Bible apologists insist that it be taken as true until totally debunked...which is what the debate is really about).

Aside from the appalling acts of the OT which any moral person should recoil from even if they believed it was real, it is a hoot that the NT - argument from evil works by saying the OT stuff no longer applies. Even if they were unaware (as the entire membership of the Christian religion seems to be) that Jesus said that Church attendance was unimportant.

'1213" opted to address claim #1 of the video, which would be more organic to intertwine with the 'problem of evil" I reckon.?.?. The video in the OP mentions other stuff. Ultimately, though I feel the problem of evil presents a problem for the Christian, at it's 'core', I'm wondering if the divine hiddenness argument has a stronger case?

(i.e.) Why play hide-and-go-seek? Claims 2 and 3 from the video touch more-so on this question. No Christian seems to want to play, yet?

[TRANSPONDER]

So far as I see it, 'divine hiddenness' is just another evasive excuse for why there is no good evidence for God and even the evidence is against. Just as in 'God knows what he is doing' or (as on my former board (incidentally another self -proclaimed atheist who did not know any atheist arguments, argued against atheists and could not have sounded more Theist if he was one) mooted the 'God's plan is Good in the end so everything that happens is Good' apologetic and he stuck to that no matter what was said. There's the 'naughty step' argument, the rejection of ET argument, the 'God lets the devil operate freely as he cannot Do anything that would prove he exists as that would nullify Faith which reuires belief in God without any good reason (which is a hoot as Faith depends on there being no good reason to believe in God), so attempts to make God credible are against God's plan. Which implies (double hoot) that atheists are (like Judas and Sanhedrin) doing God's work and the Religious are trying to undo it. But that's a bit of a pilpul.

There's The Bible doesn't really say that or God (whinging his invisible hands) had to go along with the Evils that Men did and never mind him ording them to do it, or doing it Himself without men being involved, and finally the biting of the bullet "Ok, God does evil. He can do what He likes. Better toe the line or .....

(guitar chord...

[1213]

...
Your response merely places forth an untestable and unfalsifiable proposition. Mine is testable, yours is not. Unless you can demonstrate the existence of "Heaven", for starters.

And it you can't prove it wrong, it is possible God saved those and your claim that God doesn't save is baseless.