Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

[POI]

For many atheists, the go-to topic for debate, is "divine hiddenness". I do not see it spoke about much here? I figured it would be worthy of discussion. Below is a theist's response/rebuttal to the argument:



For Debate:

1. In claim #1, the theist states Abraham, Joseph, and Jesus have their requests ultimately fulfilled at a later date. Why do countless victims of rape, torture, AND murder go unfulfilled in their requests to be saved?

2. In claim #2, the theist states hiddenness does seem to promote a relationship in the long run. This is clearly not the case, as many will die as atheists -- (likely me, unless He is going to reveal Himself to me later in a way for which I will not doubt His mere existence).

3. In claim #3, God remains hidden from the ones who would rebel. I guess this means if I never feel I received His presence, then that means I would have rebelled anyways? Well then, should I ignore the Bible, where He presented Himself to many who reject Him then?

I'll stop here... The theist mentions other stuff, but nothing seemingly worthy of intellectual discussion.

I hope you theists can come up with BETTER reasons than the ones given in the video?

Or, in conclusion, apply Occam's Razor for the following question: Why doesn't God intervene, when prayed upon, where ultimate finite tragedy strikes?

A): Because God does not exist... One assumption

OR

B): God does exist, but.... Commence additional assumptions

******************************

A) needs only one assumption, B) needs more....

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to brunumb in post #30]


Like most of my Pet theories, it fits and works, but apart from the things they say in argument 'my opinion is as good as yours' and the continual reversal of burden of proof, it is just a theory that explains the way they argue.

[1213]

...
I suppose that it's like the rebuttal to 'Prayer works'. We know it doesn't and the believers know it doesn't,

I think praying works as said in the Bible.

...as they have to alter the parameters of what 'answered prayer' means. So unfulfilled requests to be saved is something we are all sure happens. We know that, despite the claims of miraculous one person out of fifty gets saved and the other don't, some people who must have prayed to be saved, don't get saved. ...

What do you mean with "saved"? I think it means person is saved from death to eternal life. How can you know no one is saved to eternal life?

[TRANSPONDER]

...
I suppose that it's like the rebuttal to 'Prayer works'. We know it doesn't and the believers know it doesn't,

I think praying works as said in the Bible.

...as they have to alter the parameters of what 'answered prayer' means. So unfulfilled requests to be saved is something we are all sure happens. We know that, despite the claims of miraculous one person out of fifty gets saved and the other don't, some people who must have prayed to be saved, don't get saved. ...

What do you mean with "saved"? I think it means person is saved from death to eternal life. How can you know no one is saved to eternal life?

Rather iconically, atheist or Bible - critical apologists (who may be irreligious theists) refer to the written guarantee that whatever you ask for in prayer even to uproot a tree or a mountain, that is what God will do. Well, obviously that is not true and the Believers know it isn't so they have to write in a lot of small print evasion -clauses.

Now, as to 'saved'... thank you for a blatant evasion. You and I both know that we were talking about people being saved in this life from anything they appealed to God to be saved from. That they were saved after death is a different thing altogether.

If you want to debate the probability of being saved after death, you can, but this is definitely about peo9ple being saved from unpleasantries in this life.

eg. #'23 (slightly jiggered for clarity)

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:05 pm
That is not a logical question. The Logical question is, how do you know they were?...
.1213 wrote: For me it is enough to show we don't know, which is why it is baseless claim that God didn't save.

This is clear - we are talking about not being saved in the past, not the future, after death.

Now you may have forgotten, which is also irritating, when the Theist or Bible apologists side keep shifting their ground and changing the discussion, but it is still evasive, deliberately or not being able to remember the discussion. But it was not about being saved after death. That was not the point at all.

[brunumb]

I think praying works as said in the Bible.

What you think is not sufficient evidence, sorry.

[Clownboat]

...
I suppose that it's like the rebuttal to 'Prayer works'. We know it doesn't and the believers know it doesn't,

I think praying works as said in the Bible.

...as they have to alter the parameters of what 'answered prayer' means. So unfulfilled requests to be saved is something we are all sure happens. We know that, despite the claims of miraculous one person out of fifty gets saved and the other don't, some people who must have prayed to be saved, don't get saved. ...

What do you mean with "saved"? I think it means person is saved from death to eternal life. How can you know no one is saved to eternal life?

You obviously have no clue just how unfulfilling your explanations are.
Transponder) Prayer has been shown to not work.
1213) I think it works anyways.
One thing is certain though, you have no God helping you, just what you think.

Ironically, it is human thoughts that seem to have created all the available god concepts. If your god is real, why is it hiding and why doesn't it help you debate?

[Clownboat]

Now you may have forgotten, which is also irritating, when the Theist or Bible apologists side keep shifting their ground and changing the discussion, but it is still evasive, deliberately or not being able to remember the discussion. But it was not about being saved after death. That was not the point at all.

Makes me wonder why if said god is real, why it doesn't help its followers debate? It's as if the god is hiding.

The gods not existing explains this.

[TRANSPONDER]

It's the good old bait and switch. It's the ultimate election promise. 'We'll deliver after you're dead'. But it's cropped up in a number of debates and talks and of course the scenario is as emotively charges as possible, but I'll say it's a Nasty going on.

God does Nothing. God lets it happen. Even in his own church But it's ok, the victims will be lucky to get an admission of sin, let alone an apology, but it's ok, they will all burn after they die.

Or will they? Examination of Faith of works debates shows that Words (doing Good) isn't what saves but Faith - provided it is the right one. If anyone burns it won't be because they sinned- if they repented and had the Right Faith, they'll be ok. But the victims if (say) they were disgusted and lost faith, will burn...Quite apart from the absurdity of the heaven -Hell cut off, (where two people with equal scores might have one go to heaven because he bought a sticker a couple of times more. Despite a common belief, it's right Faith that saves, Good deeds won't.

[POI]

I think praying works as said in the Bible.

As I stated prior, if this were true, the ones who prayed to no longer be raped, tortured, and murders, would be rescued from rape, tortured, and murder. But unfortunately, this often is not the case. At minimum, God is ignoring some of these requests. But again, using Occam's Razor, it's fair to go with the singular assumption --> "there exists no such god to facilitate requests".

What do you mean with "saved"? I think it means person is saved from death to eternal life. How can you know no one is saved to eternal life?

Again, when the people are praying, they are not asking to be sent to Heaven after they are murdered. No, they are begging, asking, pleading with God to rescue them from their rape, torture, and murder. So again, applying Occam''s Razor, at minimum, God is ignoring some/most of these requests. But again, using Occam's Razor, it's fair to go with the singular assumption --> "there exists no such god to facilitate requests".

[POI]

Judging from the utter lack in Christian/theist responses, seems as though atheists do have a solid case here... The topic of "divine hiddenness' looks hard to argue, for the theist.

[TRANSPONDER]

Judging from the utter lack in Christian/theist responses, seems as though atheists do have a solid case here... The topic of "divine hiddenness' looks hard to argue, for the theist.

I think so. The responses we have had look unlike evidence for divine hiddenness, but an excuse as to why the evidence is rather against it being a valid argument.