What's the Point of Prayer?

[POI]

In regards to the following verses -- Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23....

What do they really mean? I've debated many theists, and get a whole mess of conflicting answers. It will likely be no surprise if that continues here. After some thought, here are some findings...

1. All prayer is pointless, as any "answered prayer" would merely mean, <at best>, that it already aligned with God's will. Why? Because you cannot make God change His will. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

2. Ignore the above! God answers all prayer with a (yes, no, or later). His answer, of course, would be "no" if you are asking God to commit a 'sin.' But if this option is the case, I guess he will always say no to the requests of restoring lost limbs, reversing cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome. Why? Because they will die with these conditions, which means they remained unfulfilled until natural death. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above, as there really exists no such caveats....?

3. Ignore choices 1. and 2.! Prayer is only meant for giving thanks, other. God is not a slot machine! But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

I'm sure there exists a plethora of other explanations........ You get the gist....

For Debate:

What is the point of prayer? I guess we can start here, and see where this goes....

[1213]

...not understand the Bible at all well....

Please give one example of what I don't understand in the Bible.

[brunumb]

...
Okay, can you ask God to give you anything He was not ALREADY planning on giving you (yes or no)?

If yes, then you have changed His will -- (which then means God's will is not set)
...

Unless God has decided that He gives it, if asked.

I get exactly the same results from my pet rock.

[POI]

...
Okay, can you ask God to give you anything He was not ALREADY planning on giving you (yes or no)?

If yes, then you have changed His will -- (which then means God's will is not set)
...

Unless God has decided that He gives it, if asked.

If it is predetermined, as you suggest, then prayer is worthless. Hence, it is pointless to pray for something, as he already knows what He is going to do ahead of time. So why do YOU pray?

Further, if He knows many will pray, on behalf of the ones who have amputated limbs, cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome; why in the heck is He always skipping over these prayers ahead of time? Why does He never intervene here?

[TRANSPONDER]

...not understand the Bible at all well....

Please give one example of what I don't understand in the Bible.

Like prophecy, be patient my son....it'll come. Right now I don't want to go off topic by posing a lot of stuff that (as I recall) you don't understand. Right now, I'm saying that my recollection that you don't understand it undermines your claim that prayer for understanding was answered. That is on the topic. Your refusal to accept that was only to be expected.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
Okay, can you ask God to give you anything He was not ALREADY planning on giving you (yes or no)?

If yes, then you have changed His will -- (which then means God's will is not set)
...

Unless God has decided that He gives it, if asked.

If it is predetermined, as you suggest, then prayer is worthless. Hence, it is pointless to pray for something, as he already knows what He is going to do ahead of time. So why do YOU pray?

Further, if He knows many will pray, on behalf of the ones who have amputated limbs, cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome; why in the heck is He always skipping over these prayers ahead of time? Why does He never intervene here?

I'm going to give away what I think is the Biggie that Christian apologists never seem to have thought of - stop me if you heard it and correct me if this doesn't work, but if God knew everything before He even started creating, he knew All possible outcomes and selected the optimum Plan to achieve His ends.

Thus all the prayers we would make and His response were factored into the plan before he even created the first stuff. But the prayers had to exist as part of the plan even though he knew beforehand whether he would grant them or not. Thus, nobody is Changing anything by a prayer- the prayer is part of the plan.

Christian apologists, you can have that for free, but I'd appreciate you smash the Like button, I'm aiming for the Big 20 before Xmas.

However, Poi, you undermine the whole Plan (or indeed the alternative ad hoc procedure with God working blind) with this problem of why God finds car keys and arranges winning goals (and defeat for the other side who also prayed for victory) and doesn't heal so much that wasn't deserved, or doesn't avert disasters especially in Christian areas where more atheist countries don't get hit.

"God's thunderbolts hit his own temples" said the Greek thinker. That has always been the bottom line of atheist apologetics "If God didn't exist, it would all look just the same".

[POI]

...
Okay, can you ask God to give you anything He was not ALREADY planning on giving you (yes or no)?

If yes, then you have changed His will -- (which then means God's will is not set)
...

Unless God has decided that He gives it, if asked.

If it is predetermined, as you suggest, then prayer is worthless. Hence, it is pointless to pray for something, as he already knows what He is going to do ahead of time. So why do YOU pray?

Further, if He knows many will pray, on behalf of the ones who have amputated limbs, cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome; why in the heck is He always skipping over these prayers ahead of time? Why does He never intervene here?

I'm going to give away what I think is the Biggie that Christian apologists never seem to have thought of - stop me if you heard it and correct me if this doesn't work, but if God knew everything before He even started creating, he knew All possible outcomes and selected the optimum Plan to achieve His ends.

Thus all the prayers we would make and His response were factored into the plan before he even created the first stuff. But the prayers had to exist as part of the plan even though he knew beforehand whether he would grant them or not. Thus, nobody is Changing anything by a prayer- the prayer is part of the plan.

Christian apologists, you can have that for free, but I'd appreciate you smash the Like button, I'm aiming for the Big 20 before Xmas.

However, Poi, you undermine the whole Plan (or indeed the alternative ad hoc procedure with God working blind) with this problem of why God finds car keys and arranges winning goals (and defeat for the other side who also prayed for victory) and doesn't heal so much that wasn't deserved, or doesn't avert disasters especially in Christian areas where more atheist countries don't get hit.

"God's thunderbolts hit his own temples" said the Greek thinker. That has always been the bottom line of atheist apologetics "If God didn't exist, it would all look just the same".

As the OP suggests, I'm open to any interpretation, as to WHAT is the actual point(s) of prayer? However, seems as though there is not much interaction from the Christian end of things. Maybe this will change, moving forward?

[POI]

Well, I've let this topic marinate long enough to realize that Christians do not want to come forward to explain the concept of prayer. What IS the point of prayer? As I await THE answer from the Christian populous, I will place forth relevant questions related to this topic. Christians, if you cannot explain the point of prayer, maybe instead answer some/all of these questions?

1) A Muslim and a Jew pray for their friend in the hospital to recover. The friend recovers. Who takes the credit, the Muslim, the Jew, the hospital, or other?

2) If God answers prayer, why perpetually skip requests to undo amputees, cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome?

3) If god only answers prayers that he knows you need, than what is the point of prayer? Prayer is then only demonstrated effective if it already agrees with god's predetermined plan for you.

4) You are diagnoses with a curable disease. You are presented with only two options for treatment, but you cannot choose both. These options are a) medical treatment, or b) prayer. Which one do you choose and why <a) or b)>?

5) Does prayer, before surgery, ever change the outcome? If yes, how might one know?

6) Two patients are diagnosed with cancer and both receive treatment. The one that was prayed for dies, and the one who was not prayed for lives. What rationale is presented by the Christian family, who's loved one died? I would assume that the patient whom died, was not prayed for to perish.

7) In the old testament, individuals would pray for victory in war and claim god helped them win. If the opponent had also prayed to the same god, would the outcome have changed? Either way, doesn't this demonstrate that god plays favorites?

8) By what mechanism was used to determine god actually answers your prayers? Remember, people pray to differing god(s). They also claim to receive answers in prayer. What truth assignment function was used to determine your prayer is successful, but the differing prayed to god(s) are all false or unanswered?

9) A Christian enters a Mosque, sees many Muslims praying, in accordance with Islamic principles. What's more likely, that every single person there is delusional, and is merely talking to themselves? Or, some or all are actually receiving answers to their prayers, and/or are communicating with their claimed deity? How were you able to determine this conclusion?

10) When and if you feel you receive a response in prayer, how do you know it is from the deity you are actually praying to, and not from a competing spirit because you have channeled an alternate dimension? Or maybe, you are just talking to yourself? Since you only have your brain, how do you know if you are talking to yourself, self diluting yourself, talking to some other supernatural entity, or actually talking to the god your are praying to? Is it by faith alone? If so, what value does faith actually represent?

[TRANSPONDER]

It would be interesting to hear a Christian Take on it; are the Muslims praying to the True god but doing it wrong or praying to a false god? It's like 'it's all the same god' (to get around the which god?' problem. But do they say 'Muslims? fine'. Rather they fume about doctrinal difference; heck they fume about doctrinal differences in Christianity. So I suppose that answers that - yes they are praying to the True God but doing it so wrong that they will burn along with the atheists and those who interpreted Matthew 8.4 differently.

[AquinasForGod]

I will give you Thomas Aquinas' answer, which I agree with.

In Classical Theism, God is timeless and doesn't change. God is one eternal act. God's essence is his existence.

With that said, Aquinas says that God answered prayers from this one eternal act. God doesn't wait around for you to pray, then answers if he wishes to. Rather, God knows what you will pray and in his one eternal act, he either answers or not. If it doesn't contradict his plan for maximal goodness, then he might answer, depending on if you are in his graces or not and whatever else God chooses to answer based upon.

Then the question is asked, why pray at all then? Because if you don't ask, then there is never something to answer.

In Aquinas' own words

...our motive in praying is, not that we may change the Divine disposition, but that, by our prayers, we may obtain what God has appointed.

[TRANSPONDER]

I will give you Thomas Aquinas' answer, which I agree with.

In Classical Theism, God is timeless and doesn't change. God is one eternal act. God's essence is his existence.

With that said, Aquinas says that God answered prayers from this one eternal act. God doesn't wait around for you to pray, then answers if he wishes to. Rather, God knows what you will pray and in his one eternal act, he either answers or not. If it doesn't contradict his plan for maximal goodness, then he might answer, depending on if you are in his graces or not and whatever else God chooses to answer based upon.

Then the question is asked, why pray at all then? Because if you don't ask, then there is never something to answer.

In Aquinas' own words

...our motive in praying is, not that we may change the Divine disposition, but that, by our prayers, we may obtain what God has appointed.

That is the answer to prayer interfering with god's plan - it is part of it, but we still have to do it as we have (so to speak) already done it. It is one apologetic that does answer. But it does have its' own problems, and to anticipate the answer, it is why the Bible, Christianity and Anselm don't make sense; there is no small print in the Gospels. God says that whatever you sk in Faith will be grnted; he doesn't say 'assuming of course that it is ok for you to have it, in which case My father will just say No, or rather just not give it to you, just as if He wasn't there at all, and you'll just have to have Faith that He is there." The Christians have to provide that apologetics excuse.