Attention "Creationists"

[POI]

In the never-ending/perpetual 'god debate', Christians will often quote the following from Romans 1:20 (i.e.):

"20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Meaning, we atheists know 'god' exists because of the observed 'creation' all around us. We instead choose to suppress such obvious 'observation', for this or that reason. Well, I'm here to challenge this assertion from the Bible.

Many Christians need to really think about what 'creation' actually means? Meaning, I can 'create' stuff. Running water can 'create' stuff. Erosion can 'create' stuff. Pressure and time can 'create' stuff. Etc....

If I 'create' something, in reality, I'm instead repurposing or rearranging material. But it is still intentional. A 'mind' purposed it's reconfiguration.

If nature 'creates' something, like the Grand Canyon, Mount Everest, Yosemite, it was likely not reconfigured from a 'mind'. It's not intentional.

For debate:

1. Can you Christians distinguish the difference between both intentional and unintentional "creation" -- (in every case)?

Example 1: A straight row of almond trees was designed by a 'mindful' tree farmer. A random array of almond trees, in the middle of an uninhabited area, was likely not placed there 'mindfully' or intentionally.

Example 2: 99.9999% of the 'universe', in which we know about, is unihabitable for humans -- god's favorite 'creation'.

Example 3: The majority of the earth itself is also unihabitable for humans -- god's favorite 'creation'.

Example 4: An intentional mind 'created' humans, where an airway and a food pathway share the same plumbing, where a sewage system and sex organs share the same pathway, and also where a urine pathway routes directly through the prostate?

2. If you can distinguish the difference between intentional and unintentional "creation", is the author of Romans 1:20 still correct? If yes, why yes?

3. If 'science' is correct, and matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but instead only repurposed; this means there exists no reason to invent or assert a god in charge of 'creation', right?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah in post #29]

I suppose you were suckered into creationism by Creationist 'Science'? There are Creationists from Christian households that were deconverted in various ways, including I suppose realising that Genesis could not be right...What more do you have?

I don't feel suckered in.

I am just saying do the experiment.

[POI]

Nature doesn't create - nature causes. Yes, our conversational language allows us to say, 'the wind created devastation. or 'winter created the snow season' but that is some version of Personification.

If you read my OP carefully, you will see I already expressed this... 'True creation' would mean 'poofing' something into existence, from non-existence. All other word associations speak about 'reconstituting', 'repurposing', etc...

1 - even if I fail in every case I am fallible. But in general, the evidence is overwhelming.

I do not see how this is possible. If you are able to discern the difference between intentional causation (vs) unintentional causation, even only in many cases, then you will swiftly realize the earth is filled with unintentional 'creation' (i.e.) :

Intentional = A farmer's tree orchard
Unintentional = A rain forest

Intentional = a reservoir with a damn on one end
Unintentional = Natural Dam lake

etc etc etc

2 - yes he is correct, you can look and see the creator's handiwork right now if you like. It is an incredible mental effort to look at the universe and come up with the view that it is meaningless and purposeless.

There exists an infinite number of examples of unintentional causes. And this is exactly what the Bible is speaking about. So the answer is actually a big fat NO, as it relates to Romans 1:20.

3 - seems a long bow to me. No I don't see that conclusion.

Wait a minute.... Science admits matter can neither be created nor destroyed, right? Is it not possible that matter always was? If not, why not?

Why not literally try the experiment? You have one life. Go out and live one day with a belief in God and that He loves you and that life has a purpose and compare that day to the rest of your life. If you prefer it, try again for another day. Do the experiment.

I tried this many times, for decades. I realized I'm likely speaking to myself. But thanks for the suggestion. But just so you are aware, there exists countless others, who feel like they are speaking to differing god(s) than you. Are they all mistaken?

Atheism is really hard-nosed suppression. Why buck the goads?

The human tendency to invoke intentional agency, where there may not actually be any, is a part of our evolutionary survival -- as a species. Thus, I do not necessarily blame you for your a priori assumption.

[Tcg]

Atheism is really hard-nosed suppression. Why buck the goads?

Oh, my goodness. Yet another misrepresentation of atheism. Will they ever end? Atheism is the lack of believe in gods. It is so straightforward one has to wonder why some are motivated to misunderstand and misrepresent it. What is your motivation to do so?


Tcg

[Wootah]

Atheism is really hard-nosed suppression. Why buck the goads?

Oh, my goodness. Yet another misrepresentation of atheism. Will they ever end? Atheism is the lack of believe in gods. It is so straightforward one has to wonder why some are motivated to misunderstand and misrepresent it. What is your motivation to do so?


Tcg

Understanding and truth.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Wootah in post #29]

I suppose you were suckered into creationism by Creationist 'Science'? There are Creationists from Christian households that were deconverted in various ways, including I suppose realising that Genesis could not be right...What more do you have?

I don't feel suckered in.

I am just saying do the experiment.

If your were suckered in (I use the term to refer to misrepresented data, evidence and science to pretend there is a valid case for Genesis, Creationism and Goddunnit) then it looks to me like being suckered in no matter how it looks to you.

I'm not even suggesting spending a day in a 'please brainwash me!' posture, but spend a day looking impartially at the evidence rather than grabbing at excuses to dismiss it.

[POI]

I am a born-again Christian from a non-Christian household and an atheist before that.

I feel compelled to ask... Would you be able to describe the tipping-point, which converted you from atheism to creationism/Christianity?

Further, was it a slow process, where you realized 'creationism' had to exist, which later drew you towards Christianity? Or, was it the other way around? Meaning, you found Jesus first, and then filled in the blanks for 'creationism'?

From your brief description, it sounds like you were indoctrinated early, then fell away, and then came back to Christianity?

[POI]

I'm not even suggesting spending a day in a 'please brainwash me!' posture, but spend a day looking impartially at the evidence rather than grabbing at excuses to dismiss it.

For "Wotaah", I don't think (s)he can do that, especially when they have a Christian worldview.

[Tcg]

Atheism is really hard-nosed suppression. Why buck the goads?

Oh, my goodness. Yet another misrepresentation of atheism. Will they ever end? Atheism is the lack of believe in gods. It is so straightforward one has to wonder why some are motivated to misunderstand and misrepresent it. What is your motivation to do so?


Tcg

Understanding and truth.

That doesn't answer my question. Misrepresenting truth can't possibly lead to either understanding or truth. So, I ask again why you are motivated to misrepresent atheism?


Tcg

[Wootah]

[Replying to Tcg in post #38]

Are you a mind reader? Claiming mind reading?

My motivations are Understanding and truth.

Go on and type something else about what you think my motivations are.

[Wootah]

[Replying to POI in post #36]

This is my testimony I read out on the day I was baptised.

Thank you everyone for coming today.
I know you might be thinking ‘but I was coming to church anyway’ but even that is something that we really don’t have to do and so I it good that everyone is here.
I’ve been asked to share my testimony and so I will as best I can…
I won’t talk to much about what happened. The short story is really just that a good friend spent a lot of time talking to me. The reality is that my own reality wasn’t working any longer. I didn’t like who I was and why I was doing it.
Why was I brought up to be good and not brought up to know good? There was a despair in myself and I suspect this despair lingers amongst secular Australians as to why they are brought up to follow the rules, to behave, to do good. For what end? It simply needs to be said, ‘ it makes more sense to take for yourself than to give for others’ and honestly I broke down around this question. I really only believe in doing good because of the parable of the unforgiving servant. As Jesus showed me mercy, I should show other’s mercy. I really doubt there is any better philosophical basis to justify doing good.
But there is a deeper issue and that was the vacuous and vain and harried attempts I made to do good. And yet I have no stories of helping others or working for charities but my mind definitely was sure I was good. But ‘there is none good but God’. The pursuit of being good is just another narcissistic attempt to subvert God’s authority.
How can one change if one does not know who they are? If none are good but God what are you, what am I? And therein lay the freedom I found in Christ. I’m glad there are none good but God. I’m glad that I know what I am and what God is. I’m bad, God is good and thank you Christ for dying for my sins. To everyone considering Christianity today, for me, this is the great freedom in Christ. Take the weight of lies off your shoulders. The way I lived before was hard and heavy.
Try Jesus’s yoke because it is lighter.
Come to me all of you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30
I have been saved for 5-6 years now but only earnestly considered myself a Christian in the last two years and only ready to be baptised now. I still find myself carefully turning over pieces of myself and each piece of God’s word and I still ‘test it to see if it is true’. It was a slow process and God willing it will remain a slow process. Thank you for being part of it.