Attention "Creationists"

[POI]

In the never-ending/perpetual 'god debate', Christians will often quote the following from Romans 1:20 (i.e.):

"20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Meaning, we atheists know 'god' exists because of the observed 'creation' all around us. We instead choose to suppress such obvious 'observation', for this or that reason. Well, I'm here to challenge this assertion from the Bible.

Many Christians need to really think about what 'creation' actually means? Meaning, I can 'create' stuff. Running water can 'create' stuff. Erosion can 'create' stuff. Pressure and time can 'create' stuff. Etc....

If I 'create' something, in reality, I'm instead repurposing or rearranging material. But it is still intentional. A 'mind' purposed it's reconfiguration.

If nature 'creates' something, like the Grand Canyon, Mount Everest, Yosemite, it was likely not reconfigured from a 'mind'. It's not intentional.

For debate:

1. Can you Christians distinguish the difference between both intentional and unintentional "creation" -- (in every case)?

Example 1: A straight row of almond trees was designed by a 'mindful' tree farmer. A random array of almond trees, in the middle of an uninhabited area, was likely not placed there 'mindfully' or intentionally.

Example 2: 99.9999% of the 'universe', in which we know about, is unihabitable for humans -- god's favorite 'creation'.

Example 3: The majority of the earth itself is also unihabitable for humans -- god's favorite 'creation'.

Example 4: An intentional mind 'created' humans, where an airway and a food pathway share the same plumbing, where a sewage system and sex organs share the same pathway, and also where a urine pathway routes directly through the prostate?

2. If you can distinguish the difference between intentional and unintentional "creation", is the author of Romans 1:20 still correct? If yes, why yes?

3. If 'science' is correct, and matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but instead only repurposed; this means there exists no reason to invent or assert a god in charge of 'creation', right?

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #38]

Are you a mind reader? Claiming mind reading?

My motivations are Understanding and truth.

Go on and type something else about what you think my motivations are.

No mind reading needed. I can read what you typed and what you typed is a misrepresentation of atheism. That is what lead me to ask what your motivation to misrepresent atheism is. I have no idea what motivates you to misrepresent atheism which is why I asked you what it is. If I was pretending to be a mind reader, I'd answer the question for you. I haven't because I have no clue what your motivation is. All I know is that you in fact have done so.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

I'm not even suggesting spending a day in a 'please brainwash me!' posture, but spend a day looking impartially at the evidence rather than grabbing at excuses to dismiss it.

For "Wotaah", I don't think (s)he can do that, especially when they have a Christian worldview.

I don't think anyone In Faith can do it either, but if they can't then I shouldn't be expected to adopt a 'Faith -position' (as I see it), quit apart I would need some good reasons other than presenting it as an 'experiment', which looks to me like an attempt to sucker me into adopting a faith - brainwashing position. It's not going to happen, not without some good reason to do it.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Wootah in post #40]

Kindly don't waste time by Witnessing to us. We are impressed by evidence, not protestations of Faith.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah in post #40]

Kindly don't waste time by Witnessing to us. We are impressed by evidence, not protestations of Faith.

I was literally asked.

I feel compelled to ask... Would you be able to describe the tipping-point, which converted you from atheism to creationism/Christianity?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Wootah in post #40]

Kindly don't waste time by Witnessing to us. We are impressed by evidence, not protestations of Faith.

I was literally asked.

I feel compelled to ask... Would you be able to describe the tipping-point, which converted you from atheism to creationism/Christianity?

Ah Ok. I stand corrected and my apologies.

[brunumb]

[Replying to Wootah in post #40]

Kindly don't waste time by Witnessing to us. We are impressed by evidence, not protestations of Faith.

I was literally asked.

I feel compelled to ask... Would you be able to describe the tipping-point, which converted you from atheism to creationism/Christianity?

At the beginning of your testimony you said:
"I won’t talk to much about what happened. The short story is really just that a good friend spent a lot of time talking to me."

Nothing in the rest of your testimony actually explains what it was that convinced you to convert to theism and Christianity in particular. I'm guessing that it lies in the bit where "a good friend spent a lot of time talking to" you. Is it possible for you to elaborate a bit more on that.

[POI]

Understanding and truth.

Can you please address post 32?

[TRANSPONDER]

9. No unconstructive one-liners posts are allowed in debates.

Kindly refrain from making posts that contribute nothing to debate and/or simply express agreement / disagreement or make other frivolous remarks.

For complimenting or agreeing use the Thank button. For anything else use PM.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #36]

This is my testimony I read out on the day I was baptised.

Thank you everyone for coming today.
I know you might be thinking ‘but I was coming to church anyway’ but even that is something that we really don’t have to do and so I it good that everyone is here.
I’ve been asked to share my testimony and so I will as best I can…
I won’t talk to much about what happened. The short story is really just that a good friend spent a lot of time talking to me. The reality is that my own reality wasn’t working any longer. I didn’t like who I was and why I was doing it.
Why was I brought up to be good and not brought up to know good? There was a despair in myself and I suspect this despair lingers amongst secular Australians as to why they are brought up to follow the rules, to behave, to do good. For what end? It simply needs to be said, ‘ it makes more sense to take for yourself than to give for others’ and honestly I broke down around this question. I really only believe in doing good because of the parable of the unforgiving servant. As Jesus showed me mercy, I should show other’s mercy. I really doubt there is any better philosophical basis to justify doing good.
But there is a deeper issue and that was the vacuous and vain and harried attempts I made to do good. And yet I have no stories of helping others or working for charities but my mind definitely was sure I was good. But ‘there is none good but God’. The pursuit of being good is just another narcissistic attempt to subvert God’s authority.
How can one change if one does not know who they are? If none are good but God what are you, what am I? And therein lay the freedom I found in Christ. I’m glad there are none good but God. I’m glad that I know what I am and what God is. I’m bad, God is good and thank you Christ for dying for my sins. To everyone considering Christianity today, for me, this is the great freedom in Christ. Take the weight of lies off your shoulders. The way I lived before was hard and heavy.
Try Jesus’s yoke because it is lighter.
Come to me all of you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30
I have been saved for 5-6 years now but only earnestly considered myself a Christian in the last two years and only ready to be baptised now. I still find myself carefully turning over pieces of myself and each piece of God’s word and I still ‘test it to see if it is true’. It was a slow process and God willing it will remain a slow process. Thank you for being part of it.

I now have to ask... Does any of this have to do with the OP thread? Sounds like you are now a "creationist" through secondary measures. Meaning, you did not look around you and say, 'hey, a god must of did all of this this. Let me explore which god, so I can then follow that god." No, It sounds like it could more-so be the other way around. Meaning, you first decided which god (by other means); and are now forced to make the 'creationism' puzzle fit?

Regardless, would you now mind addressing post #32? I would like to know how your rationale differs from mine?

[POI]

That doesn't answer my question. Misrepresenting truth can't possibly lead to either understanding or truth. So, I ask again why you are motivated to misrepresent atheism?

I think his/her answer goes right back to the core of the OP. Romans 1 suggests that we ALL know a god exists. Many of us just suppress it because of 'evil' or 'stupidity.'

And now, this is exactly what I want to challenge the theist populous about.... If he/she addresses post 32, maybe they can shed some light, as to why <I'M> mistaken about the concept of 'creationism'.

If "Wotaah" continues to (skip/ignore), then "Wotaah" is not really interested in finding or demonstrating truth Because sometimes, the truth hurts.