In The Beginning...

[William]

Question For Debate:



Resources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... imulation/
https://builtin.com/hardware/simulation-theory
https://www.simulation-argument.com/

[The Tanager]

Do you have an answer to the why question?

Didn’t you then go about answering the why question and then asked if I agreed? I thought I was agreeing with that answer to the why question.

Is there a way of misunderstanding the above?

There’s almost always a way to misunderstand something. As misunderstandings go, it’s sometimes not until later that the misunderstanding is discovered.

We have both agreed that:
1: We exist within a creation.
2: Simulation Theory is a valid way to interpret the Biblical stories.
3: YVHV placed humans into this universe to grow personalities.
4: The purpose of YVHV growing human personalities is so that these would potentially gain experience of the truth of the reason for their environment and their temporary experience within it.
5: It is an advantage to all grown personalities to be consciously and consistently connected with YVHV and thus understand and support YVHVs initiatives.

Do you agree?

Yes to 1-3 and 5.

Some things in 4 seem new, but maybe I missed them earlier or am misunderstanding it now. I think the purpose covers more than humans gaining the truth of the reason for their environment. I think the environment plays a role in getting to the deeper truth of being in a relationship with YHWH and YHWH’s children. I also don’t think this is just a temporary environment. I believe the physical universe will be changed, but that we will exist eternally in a physical environment.

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #111]

Do you have an answer to the why question?

Didn’t you then go about answering the why question and then asked if I agreed?

Your answer to the what question was that the advantage to having the knowledge that you were grown by YVHV [in relation to being part of the process of exploring, breeding and subduing the planet] is;

A: In that knowing the truth is advantageous in knowing that truth and in finding other truths

and I replied;

That somewhat answers the "what" question.

How does knowing the truth you are grown by YVHV and that being advantageous and in finding other truths" answer the "why" question?

Why does YVHV grow human personalities in this environment? And re the answer to that question, how is the answer advantageous to the human personality who knows why?

I think the purpose covers more than humans gaining the truth of the reason for their environment.

What do you think is the reason for being within this particular environment re the reason for being grown in this particular environment?

My answer would go along the lines that without this particular type of environment, the particular type of personalities would be unable to be grown by YVHV.

I think the environment plays a role in getting to the deeper truth of being in a relationship with YHWH ...

How so?

and YHWH’s children.

Who are you referring to here?

I also don’t think this is just a temporary environment. I believe the physical universe will be changed, but that we will exist eternally in a physical environment.

I used the word temporary to underline that the personalities grown here and who experience it, currently do so temporarily.

William: 4: The purpose of YVHV growing human personalities is so that these would potentially gain experience of the truth of the reason for their environment and their temporary experience within it.

I also include the body-set as a temporary environment for the personality grown within it.
[The human form - the design of the body-set being specific to the type of personality which can be grown in it.]

According to much personal testimony [Biblical and Extra-Biblical evidence] the personalities grown, do not cease to exist, but go on into other reality experiences.

Do you agree?

I believe the physical universe will be changed, but that we will exist eternally in a physical environment.

The physical universe is constantly changing/in a state of evolving. It is known by eye-witness accounts that the individual personality which was grown in this particular universe, experiences other - equally physical universes - when they depart this physical universe.

In that, your beliefs could not be affected or found to be false/not entirely true as you can exist in a universe which is physically experienced in a similar way that this current one is experienced - the personality integrated with another type of form-set/head-body-set - in order to experience the next universe in a physical manner.

Agreed?

[The Tanager]

What do you think is the reason for being within this particular environment re the reason for being grown in this particular environment?

My answer would go along the lines that without this particular type of environment, the particular type of personalities would be unable to be grown by YVHV.

I would agree. We are physical beings in a physical type of environment and this environment helps build our characters. This physical and moral environment shows us our limits and need for a relationship with YHWH to reach our full potential. Those who see this and turn to God to be made whole (rather than trying to get it all right on our own, which we can’t do) are YHWH’s children.

I used the word temporary to underline that the personalities grown here and who experience it, currently do so temporarily.

I don’t agree that we experience this reality temporarily.

I also include the body-set as a temporary environment for the personality grown within it.
[The human form - the design of the body-set being specific to the type of personality which can be grown in it.]

According to much personal testimony [Biblical and Extra-Biblical evidence] the personalities grown, do not cease to exist, but go on into other reality experiences.

Do you agree?

I do not agree that there is a human personality temporarily grown in the body-set. I believe the human personality is a mind-body being, not a mind that temporarily has a body.

I don’t see that the bible teaches that the personalities go on into other reality experiences. Neither do I see credible extra-biblical evidence that this is the case.

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #113]

1: We exist within a creation.
2: Simulation Theory is a valid way to interpret the Biblical stories.
3: YVHV placed humans into this universe to grow personalities.
4: The purpose of YVHV growing human personalities is so that these would potentially gain experience of the truth of the reason for their environment and their temporary experience within it.
5: It is an advantage to all grown personalities to be consciously and consistently connected with YVHV and thus understand and support YVHVs initiatives.

William: I also include the body-set as a temporary environment for the personality grown within it.
[The human form - the design of the body-set being specific to the type of personality which can be grown in it.]

According to much personal testimony [Biblical and Extra-Biblical evidence] the personalities grown, do not cease to exist, but go on into other reality experiences.

Do you agree?

I do not agree that there is a human personality temporarily grown in the body-set. I believe the human personality is a mind-body being, not a mind that temporarily has a body.

I don’t see that the bible teaches that the personalities go on into other reality experiences. Neither do I see credible extra-biblical evidence that this is the case.

6: We do not agree that human personalities - upon the death of their body-sets - move on to other experiences.

This is the point where we leave the shared path.

Agreed?

[The Tanager]

I’m still not sure about #4. I think the YHWH’s purpose in growing human personalities is that they would come into relationship with Him and that YHWH uses our experience with the physical environment towards that end. Is that equivalent to your phrasing?

But, yes, we do disagree about personalities moving beyond temporary body-sets to other experiences.

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #115]

4: The purpose of YVHV growing human personalities is so that these would potentially gain experience of the truth of the reason for their environment and their temporary experience within it.

I’m still not sure about #4. I think the YHWH’s purpose in growing human personalities is that they would come into relationship with Him and that YHWH uses our experience with the physical environment towards that end. Is that equivalent to your phrasing?

Mostly. The object isn't so much that the whole thing was created simply for the purpose of YHVH and the individual connecting as I do not see how that specifically relates to multiplying and subduing the earth. Connection with YHVH is something which doesn't appear to be a requirement re that end.

But, yes, we do disagree about personalities moving beyond temporary body-sets to other experiences.

You wrote earlier:

I don’t see that the bible teaches that the personalities go on into other reality experiences. Neither do I see credible extra-biblical evidence that this is the case.

How would you explain the Bible stories which mention such? Jesus mentioning the kingdom of heaven, Revelations mentioning another - alternate reality - Paul's mentioning the same...
What do you make of the idea that there is more to experience after the body dies?

There are a great deal of personal testimonies made available to anyone on the internet to do with individual personalities experiencing alternate realities. Why do you think these are not credible?

[The Tanager]

Mostly. The object isn't so much that the whole thing was created simply for the purpose of YHVH and the individual connecting as I do not see how that specifically relates to multiplying and subduing the earth. Connection with YHVH is something which doesn't appear to be a requirement re that end.

I don’t think our connection with YHWH was the only purpose of creation, either. I do think our connection does specifically relate to multiplying and subduing the earth, though, so that the world will flourish.

How would you explain the Bible stories which mention such? Jesus mentioning the kingdom of heaven, Revelations mentioning another - alternate reality - Paul's mentioning the same...
What do you make of the idea that there is more to experience after the body dies?

1. I think the kingdom of heaven is something that has come in this reality and extends into eternity.

2. In Revelation the new heaven and new earth is a renewal of this world. The holy city comes from heaven to earth.

3. Paul talks of us already being raised with Christ and seated with him in the heavenly places (Eph 2). It’s already done, not a future, alternate place.

4. Yes, more to experience, and even a glorified environment, but a continuation of this one and we will remain physical beings.

There are a great deal of personal testimonies made available to anyone on the internet to do with individual personalities experiencing alternate realities. Why do you think these are not credible?

I will listen to any case or even old cases anew. In the times I’ve looked at such cases, I don’t think there is reason to believe their testimonies over alternative explanations of what they’ve experienced.

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #117]

I will listen to any case or even old cases anew. In the times I’ve looked at such cases, I don’t think there is reason to believe their testimonies over alternative explanations of what they’ve experienced.

What alternative explanations?

I do think our connection does specifically relate to multiplying and subduing the earth, though, so that the world will flourish.

What does "the world will flourish" mean?

1. I think the kingdom of heaven is something that has come in this reality and extends into eternity.

You believe that this [our reality] is base reality?
The way you worded this gives the impression that heaven is another reality which has merged with our own.
What can you point to in order to show that this is the case?

2. In Revelation the new heaven and new earth is a renewal of this world. The holy city comes from heaven to earth.

That is one interpretation. What can you offer which supports your interpretation is the correct one?

What is "heaven" as you understand it?

If your interpretation is correct, why was the word "rebuild" or some such other word which would leave nothing to interpretation, not used, ?

3. Paul talks of us already being raised with Christ and seated with him in the heavenly places (Eph 2). It’s already done, not a future, alternate place.

If it was already done, we would see the evidence of it having been done. Even the words 'already done' imply something happened in the past - in a past alternate place.
[Heaven itself is presented as an alternate place.]

4. Yes, more to experience, and even a glorified environment, but a continuation of this one and we will remain physical beings.

Assuming we are physical beings.
We may well actually be non-physical beings who are experiencing a physical simulation. The "glorified environment" may be another way of saying our reality experience has been changed, along with our understanding of who we are.

[The Tanager]

What alternative explanations?

That they are lying, hallucinating, dreaming, honestly mistaken in some other way, etc.

What does "the world will flourish" mean?

We can multiply and subdue in destructive or life-giving (or flourishing) ways.

You believe that this [our reality] is base reality?
The way you worded this gives the impression that heaven is another reality which has merged with our own.
What can you point to in order to show that this is the case?

I think heaven is more a state than another realm. I think that the Bible talks about heaven spreading on earth, that humans are God’s images, meant to expand his rule on the earth, turning chaos into order. I think this message is all throughout Genesis and the rest of the Bible.

2. In Revelation the new heaven and new earth is a renewal of this world. The holy city comes from heaven to earth.

That is one interpretation. What can you offer which supports your interpretation is the correct one?

What is "heaven" as you understand it?

I think Genesis sets up YHWH’s desire for humans (life in the Garden), talks about how this goal was thrown into doubt (us choosing for ourselves what we think is good, which is often evil), and speaks of regaining this (through the Messiah and his people identifying with him). It’s not materiality that is shown to be bad, but sin.

Israel’s life in the OT is always tied to the land, being part of the promise. Jesus keeps in this mission, preaching that the kingdom of heaven has come with him (Matt 12:28, Mark 1:15, among others). Jesus’ resurrected body is a restored body, glorified, yes, but still a physical body and we will be raised likewise (Phil 3:21, 1 Cor 15:20-23). Paul says creation will be set free from is bondage to corruption (Romans 8:22). The NT speaks of a new heaven and a new earth, not an alternate kind of reality (Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1). The Greek in these last two passages is kainos, which I believe speaks to a new quality, not new in origin which would be a different word. Overall, I think the picture is one of continuity, not a completely new and alternate realm.

If your interpretation is correct, why was the word "rebuild" or some such other word used, which would leave nothing to interpretation?

Because things can be said in different ways.

If it was already done, we would see the evidence of it having been done. Even the words 'already done' imply something happened in the past - in a past alternate place.

I think there is evidence in the individual’s life of a renewal of life. It’s not instantaneous, but I think there is evidence of the change. Yes, “already done” speaks to it being done in the past, in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, which is the center of everything Paul teaches. That phrase doesn’t speak of an alternate place.

[Heaven itself is presented as an alternate place.]

Which passages are you referring to?

Assuming we are physical beings. We may well actually be non-physical beings who are experiencing a physical simulation. The "glorified environment" may be another way of saying our reality experience has been changed, along with our understanding of who we are.

I agree that this interpretation is logically possible. I don’t think it is the better interpretation, though, for reasons like I’ve shared.

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #119]

That they are lying, hallucinating, dreaming, honestly mistaken in some other way, etc.

Would you accept this might be the case for all such stories, or only non-biblical ones?

What does "the world will flourish" mean?

We can multiply and subdue in destructive or life-giving (or flourishing) ways.

The world appears to be flourishing then, would you agree?

I think heaven is more a state than another realm.

What do you mean by 'a state'? A state of mind, perhaps?

[Heaven itself is presented as an alternate place.]

Which passages are you referring to?

None in particular. It is often accepted as a realm where YHVH resides - The Fathers House - the going to, to prepare many mansions that biblical Jesus spoke of. Are you suggesting Jesus went to a 'state'? Why do you think the physical universe isn't also a 'state'?

Are you of the belief that the physical universe is the only thing which exists physically and that all other things are 'states' and that Jesus was speaking of a 'state' re The Father House?

If so - how does a 'state' descend - such as the mention of a city descending from the sky into the physical land of Israel?

Is it simply a metaphor for a significant change, rather than a physical thing?

I agree that this interpretation is logically possible. I don’t think it is the better interpretation, though, for reasons like I’ve shared.

Is it because of your belief systems that you have this opinion?