A simple---but serious---question

[Athetotheist]

There are numerous god-men who died and rose from death in stories predating the time of Jesus. Considering the notable differences between the gospel accounts, and particularly the differences between the accounts of Jesus's supposed resurrection, here's a question for gospel apologists to think seriously about:

There are four resurrection accounts about Jesus in the Christian gospels. If the exact same accounts, with the exact same differences, were written about Osiris, Tammuz, Attis or any such god-man other than Jesus, would Christian apologists find all of those accounts believable?

And if they wouldn't find all of them believable, would they find any of them believable?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #178

Then when it actually comes to God incarnating, from our point of view, Satan knows he failed it preventing God from doing it, so all he can do now is try to put as much doubt into it as possible

But I outlined how Satan could prevent the completion of the plan, without having to do anything from which he could be stopped. So whether his motive is supposed to be malicious or simply misguided, he would have a way to win either way.....if he existed.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #178

Then when it actually comes to God incarnating, from our point of view, Satan knows he failed it preventing God from doing it, so all he can do now is try to put as much doubt into it as possible

But I outlined how Satan could prevent the completion of the plan, without having to do anything from which he could be stopped. So whether his motive is supposed to be malicious or simply misguided, he would have a way to win either way.....if he existed.

But I do not agree. If God decides something is going to happen, no one can stop it.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #182

But I do not agree. If God decides something is going to happen, no one can stop it.

That isn't an argument; it's just a statement of belief that God has decreed a particular thing to happen.

[Tcg]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #182

But I do not agree. If God decides something is going to happen, no one can stop it.

That isn't an argument; it's just a statement of belief that God has decreed a particular thing to happen.

Of course, it is an argument. It is one totally unsupported given that no verifiable evidence has been provided, but that is true of all god claims.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #178

Then when it actually comes to God incarnating, from our point of view, Satan knows he failed it preventing God from doing it, so all he can do now is try to put as much doubt into it as possible

But I outlined how Satan could prevent the completion of the plan, without having to do anything from which he could be stopped. So whether his motive is supposed to be malicious or simply misguided, he would have a way to win either way.....if he existed.

But I do not agree. If God decides something is going to happen, no one can stop it.

Except Himself - that's the problem. The whole question of the problem of evil covers the excuse -claim that 'Satan is Lord of this world', which is either that God can't do anything about it or doesn't want to. It's the same with salvation; God could just save everyone, but apparently can't alter His Own Law even though He could. After imposing Laws on his own people, he tossed them in the bin, even the Sabbath, when Christian Greeks came along. Is it any wonder we think these excuses are made up by Believers to just get over problems, even if just 'God knows what He is doing.'?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #178

Then when it actually comes to God incarnating, from our point of view, Satan knows he failed it preventing God from doing it, so all he can do now is try to put as much doubt into it as possible

But I outlined how Satan could prevent the completion of the plan, without having to do anything from which he could be stopped. So whether his motive is supposed to be malicious or simply misguided, he would have a way to win either way.....if he existed.

But I do not agree. If God decides something is going to happen, no one can stop it.

Except Himself - that's the problem. The whole question of the problem of evil covers the excuse -claim that 'Satan is Lord of this world', which is either that God can't do anything about it or doesn't want to. It's the same with salvation; God could just save everyone, but apparently can't alter His Own Law even though He could. After imposing Laws on his own people, he tossed them in the bin, even the Sabbath, when Christian Greeks came along. Is it any wonder we think these excuses are made up by Believers to just get over problems, even if just 'God knows what He is doing.'?

Satan is the ruler of this world as in he rules over the invisible powers, who in turn influence humans. EPh 2:2

I can see why unbelievers would think that we make up excuses. But here is the question. Is it possible that God has a great plan for maximal greatness and everything we witness is a necessary part of that plan?

Can we prove this is impossible in principle?

If we cannot, then it is possible we aren't just making stuff up. It is possible then that God is the good and all this is the way it must be in order to maximize the good in us. If we must suffer such and such to get their, so be it.

If I was stuck on a mountain and my leg got infected and the only way to save me was to cut it off with a dull axe, then so be it. I must suffer that pain without medication in order to live, which I think is the greater good.

You might say, yeah, but there doesn't need to be a mountain at all. Then please offer the argument that shows in principle the world cannot be exactly as it is if God exists.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #182

But I do not agree. If God decides something is going to happen, no one can stop it.

That isn't an argument; it's just a statement of belief that God has decreed a particular thing to happen.

Of course, it is an argument. It is one totally unsupported given that no verifiable evidence has been provided, but that is true of all god claims.


Tcg

We are already granting if God exists.

So if God exists and God decides that X will happen, who can stop X from happening?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #178

Then when it actually comes to God incarnating, from our point of view, Satan knows he failed it preventing God from doing it, so all he can do now is try to put as much doubt into it as possible

But I outlined how Satan could prevent the completion of the plan, without having to do anything from which he could be stopped. So whether his motive is supposed to be malicious or simply misguided, he would have a way to win either way.....if he existed.

But I do not agree. If God decides something is going to happen, no one can stop it.

Except Himself - that's the problem. The whole question of the problem of evil covers the excuse -claim that 'Satan is Lord of this world', which is either that God can't do anything about it or doesn't want to. It's the same with salvation; God could just save everyone, but apparently can't alter His Own Law even though He could. After imposing Laws on his own people, he tossed them in the bin, even the Sabbath, when Christian Greeks came along. Is it any wonder we think these excuses are made up by Believers to just get over problems, even if just 'God knows what He is doing.'?

Satan is the ruler of this world as in he rules over the invisible powers, who in turn influence humans. EPh 2:2

I can see why unbelievers would think that we make up excuses. But here is the question. Is it possible that God has a great plan for maximal greatness and everything we witness is a necessary part of that plan?

Can we prove this is impossible in principle?

If we cannot, then it is possible we aren't just making stuff up. It is possible then that God is the good and all this is the way it must be in order to maximize the good in us. If we must suffer such and such to get their, so be it.

If I was stuck on a mountain and my leg got infected and the only way to save me was to cut it off with a dull axe, then so be it. I must suffer that pain without medication in order to live, which I think is the greater good.

You might say, yeah, but there doesn't need to be a mountain at all. Then please offer the argument that shows in principle the world cannot be exactly as it is if God exists.

Yet again, you invert the logic. Can you deny that it's possible that the Bible was a garbled account of Flying saucer pilots manufacturing man, bringing them along and more or less doing the stuff thought to be a god? Or for that matter, even if you take the Bible as it reads, isn't it possible that God, having moved on from Judaism to Christianity, moved on again to Islam? What is undisprovably possible is not valid as a hypothesis; it is what is more likely according to the best evidence that is the go -to theory. But that is just what Faithbased thinkers simply cannot get. Your argument is yet again 'can you totally disprove my belief, if not then it's valid'. No, that is not how logic work..

I maintain that the problem of evil raises problems that do worry believers and does deconvert them, too, and appeal to 'god knows best' is faithbased dismissal, and the simplest explanation that best explains the facts - no god; we are on our own - is the first choice hypothesis. that's logic, not Faith.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #182

But I do not agree. If God decides something is going to happen, no one can stop it.

That isn't an argument; it's just a statement of belief that God has decreed a particular thing to happen.

Of course, it is an argument. It is one totally unsupported given that no verifiable evidence has been provided, but that is true of all god claims.


Tcg

We are already granting if God exists.

So if God exists and God decides that X will happen, who can stop X from happening?

If God decides that X will happen, there won't be any way to stop X from happening.

But if there is a way to stop X from happening, and someone wants to stop it, that's a fairly strong indication that God has not decided that X will happen.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #182

But I do not agree. If God decides something is going to happen, no one can stop it.

That isn't an argument; it's just a statement of belief that God has decreed a particular thing to happen.

Of course, it is an argument. It is one totally unsupported given that no verifiable evidence has been provided, but that is true of all god claims.


Tcg

We are already granting if God exists.

So if God exists and God decides that X will happen, who can stop X from happening?

If God decides that X will happen, there won't be any way to stop X from happening.

But if there is a way to stop X from happening, and someone wants to stop it, that's a fairly strong indication that God has not decided that X will happen.

In my Teens I was doing a fair bit of spiritual searching as they say. I decided pretty much right away that no one religion had all the dibs and, while I gave Prophetic evangelism a fair whirl, when a Big End Times prophecy failed, I closed the Book on that until (in my 30's) a work colleague badgered me into 'Really Reading the Bible' which i did, and the results taught me two tihngs - the Bible is utterly unreliable, and the Believers are utterly incapable of approaching the matter with a really Open Mind (they mean unquestioning acceptance). But I also gave the 'Occult' a whirl, too. I mean the Palmistry and dowsing lot. And I realised early on that Fate is a bit of a delusion and fraud. It's obvious that anyone can claim that Fate is inevitable; and whatever you do won't change that. And if you make an effort and change that, that was the fate anyway. It is an unfalsifiable undisprovable, and the evidence for 'God working in your life' works just the same way. What the Believer sees as evidence of God, is evidence of nothing but their Faith.

This is absolutely what your post above is doing - claiming that whatever happens is what God decided will happen and nobody can change that. And if anyone does change that, it was what God had decided anyway.
I know, I know. nobody can make you change your mind about that and that apparently counts as a win, but that isn't the logic of debate. The claimant has the case to prove and having no case means you lose, and Keeping the Faith is merely refusing to admit that you lost, and there are no missing votes.

I won't name names, but the arguing of internal logic, or explanations, anyway, within an unvalidated faith claim proves nothing, has no evidential value and is a waste of all our time. But the Believer cannot get out of this mental box of assuming the god - claim is true and arguing from those false premises.