What's the Point of Prayer?

[POI]

In regards to the following verses -- Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23....

What do they really mean? I've debated many theists, and get a whole mess of conflicting answers. It will likely be no surprise if that continues here. After some thought, here are some findings...

1. All prayer is pointless, as any "answered prayer" would merely mean, <at best>, that it already aligned with God's will. Why? Because you cannot make God change His will. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

2. Ignore the above! God answers all prayer with a (yes, no, or later). His answer, of course, would be "no" if you are asking God to commit a 'sin.' But if this option is the case, I guess he will always say no to the requests of restoring lost limbs, reversing cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome. Why? Because they will die with these conditions, which means they remained unfulfilled until natural death. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above, as there really exists no such caveats....?

3. Ignore choices 1. and 2.! Prayer is only meant for giving thanks, other. God is not a slot machine! But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

I'm sure there exists a plethora of other explanations........ You get the gist....

For Debate:

What is the point of prayer? I guess we can start here, and see where this goes....

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #87]

The doctrine of Purgatory is

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular "place" in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-roots-of-purgatory

Jesus taught purgatory and did Paul. Peter taught that Jesus went to preach to those in prison 1 pet 3:19

Matt5: 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

Here Jesus teaches purgatory as a parable of prison. You remain in that prison until you have paid every last penny. In other word, you get out of this prison.

Matt 12: 31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Here Jesus talks about how there are sins that can be forgiven in the age to come.

1cor 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

It is good to read starting from verse 10, but Paul here clearly teaches purgatory. Being saved by fire.

And from The Acts of Paul and Thecla 160AD we have

Tryphna again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0816.htm

You're struggling a bit here. You ought to know my posts better than to think that Matthew's Pauline advice about how church members should deal with each other, stuffed anachronistically into Jesus' mouth is an analogy of purgatory. Though there is a hint of that (analogy) at the end, sure enough. The unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit is irrelevant, when you think about it rather than do a kneejerk quote. But Paul's quote is the only relevant one. Yes he sees the 'work' of the person being burned out to purify the person for the afterlife, but that looks like a pretty quick process rather than the long drawn out purgatory atonement process.

But enough of Vatican preachery, I recall that my point was Limbo and the injustice of it and Purgatory only mentioned as being related and as often happens here the original point was left behind. I'll check back.

Yes, it was a stray remark about just inventing stuff to get over problems and I mentioned Limbo and Purgatory, which had you discussing what the vatican had said and what it hadn't, which is irrelevant to the idea of Purgatory and Limbo and in fact you pretty much say that purgatory is implied by the Biblequotes and Limbo was invented to get over the problem of applying purgatory or worse to babies who had been born in sin - oh yes, unless you reject Doctrine - and how Limbo was invented to try to explain the problem away and the Vatican put dismissal of the problem 'God known best' evasion in encyclical form (1). The point is how people just make stuff up to get over problems and none of them really know anything about it for certain. That was the point. How that relates to the topic, I'd have to look further back.

(1) and please don't become a doctrinal minutiae bore and protest it isn't in an encyclical but some other kind of document. I don't care.

But I do rather care about Matthew 5.25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Sermon material, and so I wonder whether it's Q material or Mathew's own invention. I predict that it won't be in Mark (who has no sermon, because he never saw Q). But I'm sure I saw it in Romans, and recently, too.

Yep, there it is Luke 12.57 "And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59 I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny."10

As is typical Q, it isn't in Mark, Matthew has it in the sermon, and Luke as material on the journey to Jerusalem. You can pretty much watch these people writing their gospels. Let's find the origination in Paul.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #91]

We don't read the gospels in this secular way, so it doesn't matter. If Jesus says something in any of the gospels, and in this case two of them, we accept it as a teaching profitable. And in this case, along with Paul, and Peter, as well as some OT verses, the church has come to the doctrine of purgatory.

Limbo was always an interpretation of doctrines and not doctrines themselves. That is, limbo was not derived from the scriptures, but was an attempt to explain conflicting doctrines derived from the scriptures.

It was never something any had to believe in.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #91]

We don't read the gospels in this secular way, so it doesn't matter. If Jesus says something in any of the gospels, and in this case two of them, we accept it as a teaching profitable. And in this case, along with Paul, and Peter, as well as some OT verses, the church has come to the doctrine of purgatory.

Limbo was always an interpretation of doctrines and not doctrines themselves. That is, limbo was not derived from the scriptures, but was an attempt to explain conflicting doctrines derived from the scriptures.

It was never something any had to believe in.

Aside that 'two of them' (where it is something important) just means there is a common source the other two didn't have, not that it is valid and the other two just didn't see it. And, if John recounts no parables and the synoptics recount no sermons, it is because they were invented by the writers, not spoken by Jesus and you may deny it, but anyone, as the axiom says 'who has seen through the trick won't be fooled again'. The point about Purgatory and Limbo(as I recall....damn my memory...is that the dogmatic opinions of the early Church not to mention the early beliefs being revised, (or that's what I suggest) led to purgatory having to be invented to get over the logical/moral problems, and becoming church dogma (and the only relevant quote - Paul's instant burning out of impurities to leave the soul clean - is not the same thing), and Limbo, though NOT church Dogma, nevertheless had to be addressed or rather swept under the carpet with 'We all piously hope that God knows best'.

I know that these excuses of yours will fool the unwary. I remember that I began with seeing 'agnostic' as a reasonable midway belief - position between extreme Faith and extreme Denial, and the first time I watched 'open -mindedness' I rejected that what can't be explained does not mean that it has to be explained by the supernatural. We all have to lean, and then we can't be fooled by these spurious arguments.

[Tcg]

If Jesus says something in any of the gospels, and in this case two of them, we accept it as a teaching profitable.

Now all you have to do is provide verifiable evidence that any of the gospels actually represent what someone named Jesus actually said. Good luck with that.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

If Jesus says something in any of the gospels, and in this case two of them, we accept it as a teaching profitable.

Now all you have to do is provide verifiable evidence that any of the gospels actually represent what someone named Jesus actually said. Good luck with that.


Tcg

Or, indeed that it really is profitable, and not bad advice, aside from cynical ol' me constantly sees hidden Church persuasion in those words which, I will bet my non -stamp collection on, were written by Christian propagandists, not spoken by Jesus. Am I too suspicious if I see exhortations to not give thought to personal wealth but 'lay up treasure in heaven' which appears to mean 'give to the poor' which Again seems to mean 'give it to the Church and then you can forget about the poor'.

[Miles]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #91]

We don't read the gospels in this secular way, so it doesn't matter. If Jesus says something in any of the gospels, and in this case two of them, we accept it as a teaching profitable. And in this case, along with Paul, and Peter, as well as some OT verses, the church has come to the doctrine of purgatory.

Not quite sure what a "teaching profitable" is, but what profit is to be had from Jesus's utterance that

". . . if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, Move from here to there, and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." Matthew 17:20

Gotta ask, is such a thing even possible? Have you ever seen a demonstration that those with faith can do whatever they want? Betcha haven't. But if you think so then you've most certainly been hoodwinked. Sorry.



And what profit is to be had from Jesus's claim that prayers, no matter how goofy, will be answered?

Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you can say to this mountain, Go, throw yourself into the sea, and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." Matthew 21:21-22

"Whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours" Mark 11:24

"I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" John 14:13-14

Especially when prayer has never, ever been proven to be the cause of any non-human event.



Or the exaggerated results of what he says believers can attain. What profit is there from Jesus's remark that

"Everything is possible for one who believes" Mark 9:23

when we know darn well that not everything is possible for one anyone, including those who believe.

OR

"Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these" John 14:12

Have you ever heard of anyone, Christian or otherwise, who has performed greater works than Jesus? Neither have I. So it appears that no one is profiting from his statement here.



How about Jesus's advice not to keep money, but to give it all away. Have you done so in order to profit by it?

"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me" Matthew 19:2

Bet you haven't. Then, of course, maybe you don't care to be perfect.



Think Jesus's advice to mutilate oneself is profitable?

You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell" Matthew 5:27-30


Perhaps you do.

In conclusion, what I see among some of Jesus's remarks is either a lot of silly self-promotion or outright lies. Take them as you wish. As for me I a have a hot pizza waiting downstairs.

.

.

[POI]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #92]

Were you planning on responding to post 90?

[AquinasForGod]

If someone one day shows me enough evidence to the contrary, then I would stop believing.

Well, this is likely never going to happen because your rubric for 'evidence' could never be satisfied. Meaning, how many unanswered prayer requests, to cure incurable conditions, would need to transpire before you started to question if such a god is even there to answer? 100 requests, 500, 1,000,000?

We do not seem to have any truly documented cases of incurable conditions; (like amputees, cerebral palsy, down syndrome, etc etc etc), which are being reversed after prayer. You already know this proclaimed god ain't going to intervene in these prayer requests. Hence, you instead move the goal post, by generating excuse(s). (i.e.)

A) God does not want to be too known?
B) You can pray for a quick death -- (for amputees, downs, and cerebral palsy)?

It is not moving the goal post. It is showing how praying might not be pointless. You might desire that God answers all prayers, but why would he? You desire that God should not be hidden, but why shouldn't he?

I have given reasons why God desires to remain hidden.

[POI]

If someone one day shows me enough evidence to the contrary, then I would stop believing.

Well, this is likely never going to happen because your rubric for 'evidence' could never be satisfied. Meaning, how many unanswered prayer requests, to cure incurable conditions, would need to transpire before you started to question if such a god is even there to answer? 100 requests, 500, 1,000,000?

We do not seem to have any truly documented cases of incurable conditions; (like amputees, cerebral palsy, down syndrome, etc etc etc), which are being reversed after prayer. You already know this proclaimed god ain't going to intervene in these prayer requests. Hence, you instead move the goal post, by generating excuse(s). (i.e.)

A) God does not want to be too known?
B) You can pray for a quick death -- (for amputees, downs, and cerebral palsy)?

It is not moving the goal post. It is showing how praying might not be pointless. You might desire that God answers all prayers, but why would he? You desire that God should not be hidden, but why shouldn't he?

I have given reasons why God desires to remain hidden.

My point is simple, and you have no rebuttal --- other than wishful thinking and/or blind faith. Meaning, it IS meaningless to pray for God to intervene upon anyone with downs syndrome, cerebral palsy, or amputations. He is not going intervene. Not at all. At best, his answers are always NO. In light of the given prayer Verses in the OP, it would be illogical to say what you are saying here. Apparently, God answers prayer.

To say He wishes to remain hidden, goes against what I stated in another thread. Meaning, your answer is YES to all such questions (i.e)

- Do you believe in the Christian God? (yes or no)
- Can your God manifest in our reality, if He wants to? (yes or no)
- Does your God want a relationship with His creation? (yes or no)
- Does your God want you to know He even exists? (yes or no)
- Does your God know what would convince anyone/everyone that He exists? (yes or no)
- Is your God capable of doing such convincing? (yes or no)
- Is your God reported to intervene with His creation? (yes or no)

[AquinasForGod]

If someone one day shows me enough evidence to the contrary, then I would stop believing.

Well, this is likely never going to happen because your rubric for 'evidence' could never be satisfied. Meaning, how many unanswered prayer requests, to cure incurable conditions, would need to transpire before you started to question if such a god is even there to answer? 100 requests, 500, 1,000,000?

We do not seem to have any truly documented cases of incurable conditions; (like amputees, cerebral palsy, down syndrome, etc etc etc), which are being reversed after prayer. You already know this proclaimed god ain't going to intervene in these prayer requests. Hence, you instead move the goal post, by generating excuse(s). (i.e.)

A) God does not want to be too known?
B) You can pray for a quick death -- (for amputees, downs, and cerebral palsy)?

It is not moving the goal post. It is showing how praying might not be pointless. You might desire that God answers all prayers, but why would he? You desire that God should not be hidden, but why shouldn't he?

I have given reasons why God desires to remain hidden.

My point is simple, and you have no rebuttal --- other than wishful thinking and/or blind faith. Meaning, it IS meaningless to pray for God to intervene upon anyone with downs syndrome, cerebral palsy, or amputations. He is not going intervene. Not at all. At best, his answers are always NO. In light of the given prayer Verses in the OP, it would be illogical to say what you are saying here. Apparently, God answers prayer.

To say He wishes to remain hidden, goes against what I stated in another thread. Meaning, your answer is YES to all such questions (i.e)

- Do you believe in the Christian God? (yes or no)
- Can your God manifest in our reality, if He wants to? (yes or no)
- Does your God want a relationship with His creation? (yes or no)
- Does your God want you to know He even exists? (yes or no)
- Does your God know what would convince anyone/everyone that He exists? (yes or no)
- Is your God capable of doing such convincing? (yes or no)
- Is your God reported to intervene with His creation? (yes or no)

I disagree that God never healed a person with downs or amputations. In fact, we see in the gospel where Jesus restored a man's arm. There are stories of these kinds of miracles happening. But naturally, God wishes to remain mostly hidden so you are not going to find the evidence you want.

Here is a testimony of a woman's down syndrome baby being healed. She shows a photo at one month and then after the healing. Maybe she is lying or mistaken you might say. But such stories exist. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAFxrMJlF78

A guys leg grew back, the miracle of Calanda, which the church ruled is authentic. Of course, there are skeptics, but you can check the whole story here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Calanda