Absolute Prohibition of Abortion

[Diogenes]

One question for debate is whether Islam and the Roman Catholic church prohibit abortion in all cases.* They both appear to, even to save the mother's life. The RC view is nuanced, perhaps using disingenuous logic.#

Assuming these two major religions DO prohibit abortion even to save the life of the mother, as well as in the cases of rape and incest, how can this prohibition be morally justified?


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*

"Never and in no case has the Church taught that the life of the child must be preferred to that of the mother. It is erroneous to put the question with this alternative: either the life of the child or that of the mother. No, neither the life of the mother nor that of the child can be subjected to direct suppression. In the one case as in the other, there can be but one obligation: to make every effort to save the lives of both, of the mother and the child." (Pope Pius XII, Allocution to the Association of Large Families, AAS (1951), XLIII, p. 855.)

#

The only ethically justified understanding of this much-celebrated exception shows that it is not an exception at all! The classical example of an ectopic pregnancy or the example of the cancerous uterus, which allow the surgeon, ethically, to remove the woman's damaged reproductive organs in order to save her life, should not be used as examples of abortion, even though a baby's life is terminated in the progress.

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/librar ... ther-12052

[Bust Nak]

So if someone is a serious imposition (I would lose my career, my job, my marriage, my house, my good reputation, ...I would lose thousands of dollars), if they continued to live.... I can kill them?

If it is serious enough, yeah. You are morally justified to remove yourself from that situation, even if that results in the death of someone else; and at the risk of taking this thread off topic, self-defense is also legally justifiable. The stuff you mentioned here doesn't sound that serious though.

[JehovahsWitness]

So if someone is a serious imposition (I would lose my career, my job, my marriage, my house, my good reputation, ...I would lose thousands of dollars), if they continued to live.... I can kill them?

If it is serious enough, yeah. You are morally justified to remove yourself from that situation, even if that results in the death of someone else....

Well if you are saying abortion should be for no other reason than if the mothers condition is life threatening then, much as that would outrage many modern abortionists, it is at least a position I can understand. I personally support the notion of protecting the innocent and vulnerable, of putting another's life before my one's own (which is arguably the very epitome of the maternal instinct) is but at least saying... "If one of us has to die, its gonna be my kid, NOT me!" is a position I can see might be intellectually justifiable even if I find it morally deplorable .


JW

[Bust Nak]

Well if you are saying abortion should be for no other reason than if the mothers condition is life threatening then, much as that would outrage many modern abortionists, it is at least a position I can understand...

What's so difficult to understand about "my body my choice?"

at least saying... "If one of us has to die, its gonna be my kid, NOT me!" is a position I can see might be intellectually justifiable even if I find it morally deplorable .

If it gets to the point of live or death, it's usually "either just my kid or both of us die..."

[JehovahsWitness]

If it gets to the point of live or death, it's usually "either just my kid or both of us die..."

I suppose it comes to believing self preservation justifies murder. There are those if us that would not want to live if it came at the cost of killing* a child, any child, much less one's own. There are things more precious than life.


JW

*murdering

[Bust Nak]

I suppose it comes to believing self preservation justifies murder. There are those if us that would not want to live if it came at the cost of killing* a child, any child, much less one's own. There are things more precious than life.

You still see it as a cost when the child will die either way?

[Clownboat]

Well if you are saying abortion should be for no other reason than if the mothers condition is life threatening then, much as that would outrage many modern abortionists, it is at least a position I can understand.

Well, that's a start. What about rape or incest? Should we force by law such victims to attempt to carry the fetus to term even if it has been deemed unwanted, or hated?

I personally support the notion of protecting the innocent and vulnerable,

Sounds like you are good with the removal of an unwanted fetus in the event of rape/incest then (protecting the innocent and vulnerable). Your start is growing! Nice.

Last question. Aborted fetuses are unwanted by definition. How many unwanted fetuses is the correct amount to force women via law to attempt to carry to term and how will all the unwanted fetuses help society?

[JehovahsWitness]

I suppose it comes to believing self preservation justifies murder. There are those if us that would not want to live if it came at the cost of killing* a child, any child, much less one's own. There are things more precious than life.

You still see it as a cost when the child will die either way?

Yes; if a child dies it will not be at my hand; it will certainly not be to save myself.




JW

[Bust Nak]

Yes; if a child dies it will not be at my hand; it will certainly not be to save myself.

What about to fulfill existing commitment, something like looking after the children one already has?

And perhaps more to the point, would you deny another people's a chance to decide for themselves what is more valuable to them?

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes; if a child dies it will not be at my hand; it will certainly not be to save myself.

What about to fulfill existing commitment, something like looking after the children one already has?

I cannot think of a real life situation where an unborn child would force one into Sophie's choice ; you have already dismissed finances or potential loss of income as justifiable reason to kill a child. If one does not have the means to raise a child there are usually agencies (or in developing countries extended family), that facilitate giving it to someone that does.




JW

[Clownboat]

And perhaps more to the point, would you deny another people's a chance to decide for themselves what is more valuable to them?

Aborted fetuses are unwanted by definition. How many unwanted fetuses is the correct amount to force women via law to attempt to carry to term and how will all the unwanted fetuses help society?

What's so difficult to understand about "my body my choice?"

Readers, if you wanted to disallow women, via law, the right to attempt to carry fetus to term or not, would you also struggle with providing answers to the questions above?